BBC NEWS 24 TV PROGRAMME
"HARDTALK" - TUESDAY
2 NOVEMBER 2004
INTERVIEW WITH DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI, INSTITUTE OF ISLAMIC POLITICAL
THOUGHT
_________________________________________________________________________
As far as you're concerned with Yasser Arafat, good riddance – you don't want him back in the Palestinian territories and that goes for your friends in Hamas as well?
Not really. The last few weeks he spent in Ramallah his relationship with Hamas was actually improving. They were doing very good business together.
But you say today his group no longer speaks for the Palestinians – these are your words:
For some time they have not been speaking for the Palestinians. Since they accepted Oslo and went along the path of peace-making in accordance with the terms of Israel and its supporters in America they had stopped speaking for the Palestinians.
But they may have stopped speaking for you and they may have stopped speaking for Hamas but there's plenty of popularity left among the Palestinians in the territories isn't there?
Well they speak for a certain segment of the Palestinians undoubtedly. This is like a tribe and Yasser Arafat was always the chief of the tribe.
Exactly. So your slogan isn't exactly right is it when you say today his group no longer speaks for the Palestinians; he speaks for quite a lot of the Palestinians doesn't he?
Quite a lot or a few – that really depends. I mean we haven't had a [genuine] election and we cannot have general election because of the current situation but ...
No, but you have opinion polls don't you?
... there are indications and the indications tell us that today it is Hamas that really represents what the Palestinians want. The Palestinians want freedom.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well you say that but that's not backed up by the opinion polls. The poll conducted by the Palestinian Centre
for Policy & Survey Research between September 23rd and 26th gives Hamas
22% compared to, I think it's the 26% or more which is given to Fatah and the
Independence.
They were asked / people were asked: Will you give your vote in the next local election to candidates from Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad or Independence and only 22.2% said Hamas. ... isn't much of support is it?
I question the credibility of this Centre and of the studies that it makes. What I would say is that give the Palestinians the freedom of choice for a change and see what they choose ...
But you just don't like the results – that's the reason you reject this isn't it?
No – there are many academics and many observers who have cast doubt on these centres which are funded by the United States of America and do research that serves the peace process and those who are involved in it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why does it serve the peace process?
There hasn't been any peace process to serve, so it hasn't served
anything has it ... ?
Well the Israelis killed the peace process:
... apart from getting the opinions of Palestinians which you don't happen to like. The fact is, according to the polls, Hamas represents under a quarter of the population. That's maybe an unpalatable fact to you but that happens to be borne out by the figures.
What Hamas represents today is actually what the Palestinians are hoping for. The Palestinians are hoping for freedom.
Some ... some Palestinians are hoping [for]:
The Palestinians, most of them want to go back home. The Oslo process, the peace process in which the PLO embroiled itself gave away the rights of the Palestinians.
When the Palestinian human-rights group did a survey of Palestinians and asked them whether they wanted to go home, the overwhelming majority said they didn't and their offices were trashed; the offices of the Palestinian Human-Rights Monitoring Group were trashed as a result of it. So you don't seem to like any results and Hamas and Islamic Jihad and people like that don't seem to like any results that go against their own orthodoxy do they?
You see that's nonsense. I as a Palestinian, I know many Palestinians around the world - I know my own family, I know my friends – we all want our homes back. Even if we live in villas, in palaces, we want our homes. Nobody has the right to steal our homes from us. Nobody has the right to bring people from outside and dump them on our land. Our land is our land.
And for that, continuing violence – that's what Hamas and your friends in Hamas speaks for?
We don't call it 'violence'. We call it 'legitimate struggle'; we call it 'jihad' ...
Well it doesn't matter what you call it. It's still murder isn't it?
You see the problem is that you're starting the story right from the end. Begin from the beginning. The beginning is when we, the Palestinians were removed from our land ...
But let's deal with the act. The act is murder isn't it?
It's not murder.
You can call it 'struggle' but it's murder, isn't it?
No, no, no. The Vietnamese people struggled and freed themselves. The South African people struggled and freed themselves.
Does it make you feel better to call it 'struggle' rather than to give it its real name of 'murder'? When you see Israeli teenagers with their blood spattered all over the ground, does it make you feel better to call that 'struggle' as opposed to 'murder'?
If the Israelis want it to stop, it can stop today but the Israelis don't want it to stop ...
No, but please answer my question: Does it make you feel better to call it 'struggle'?
It doesn't make me feel better to see anybody killed but if you come and kill me and kill my children and drive me out of my land what do you expect? I have to defend myself - on the basis of humanitarian law, on the basis of international law ...
You're not defending yourself because you can't defend yourselves can you? You're not defending yourselves.
Of course we are:
These are revenge killings aren't they?
We are defending ourselves. Our land is occupied. Ask the people who have occupied the land. Why are they occupying our land?
How useful have your tactics been - tell me that?
Very useful – of course very useful:
Why? Why?
Very useful. Look ...
The rest of the world rejects the Palestinian cause and the Palestinian suffering. You don't get any sympathy from the outside world these days. What use have your tactics been to your people?
At one time the Vietnamese people were rejected. At one time Nelson Mandela was called 'a terrorist'. It doesn't matter what some people say today. What matters is what you want to do, what you know your objective to be. Our objective is to become free human-beings in our land. Our land is occupied by aliens, by invaders.
And so you should negotiate:
Well the Israelis don't want ...?
...
The Israelis don't want to negotiate.
The Israelis said they hadn't had a partner for negotiation.
No – let them come and negotiate with Hamas. Why didn't they accept the truce?
Why should they?
Why didn't they accept the truce offered to them by Hamas?
Dr [T]amimi, why should they negotiate with an organisation that is dedicated to their destruction? Why?
Well if they don't want to negotiate then the vicious cycle will continue. Why did Tony Blair negotiate with the IRA?
How can you negotiate with a group like Hamas whose Charter says so-called peaceful solutions are incapable of restoring Palestinian rights
Peaceful solutions at their expense?
TIM SEBASTIAN
... so they renounce all peaceful means:
Peaceful solutions that give away Palestinian rights are not acceptable of course but if you are fighting a battlefield, if you want to stop the war you come and say: Let's negotiate, let's sit on the table. You don't impose preconditions. The problem with the Israelis is that they say the Palestinians are terrorists. If you call me 'a terrorist', you only make me angrier.
No – I am a human-being. I am a victim. I have a cause. Come and sit down with me and let's discuss. We can discuss a truce and Hamas offered a unilateral truce for fifty days – [a] unilateral ceasefire that was not respected by the Israelis.
What is being offered now by Hamas – a cycle of violence, continuing violence ... ?
That's what Sharon offers.
No, this is what you said.
That's what Sharon offers.
You say Hamas now enjoys the support of the Palestinians and will follow a different way from the Palestinian Authority – continuing struggle with the Israelis – that's your view?
Of course. If your land is still occupied ...
... continuing violence:
No – continuing struggle. You see you're replacing the words. It is a legitimate struggle.
But you're giving it a meaning that actually takes away some of the force of what it is that you're doing and the true meaning. When you go into a marketplace, as happened on Monday – a suicide bomber and kills people indiscriminately, you call that struggle?
If Sharon was not killing Palestinians ...
No, please answer ... No, please answer that ...
... in Palestinian towns and villages this would not have happened.
Please answer my question. You call that 'struggle' – when a suicide bomber goes into a market and kills people indiscriminately, whether it's women or children – you call that 'struggle'?
When you force people to ...
'Yes' or 'no'? Please Dr Tamimi answer the question
Of course it is a struggle; of course it is a struggle ...
It's murder isn't it?
It is a struggle ...
It's murder.
... because Sharon started it. Sharon kills Palestinians ...
It doesn't matter who started it ...
It does matter of course ...
You can go back thousands of years ...
Of course it matters ...
Are you murdering people today ... ?
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth .. of course it matters ...
Are you murdering people today? The answer is 'yes':
No – you are not murdering people if you are responding to attack. We were attacked in the first place.
So those women and children are responsible for attacking you and you just simply fought back – people who die and have their bodies strewn over the ground?
Why don't you ask the question: What are they doing there? Where did they come from?
You don't like to face this unpalatable reality do you? You don't like to face the images of what your killing does in Israeli markets?
No – I'm facing it day and night. I can see ...
And you like it? You like it?
... I can see Palestinian children and women killed day and night ...
And the Israeli women and children ... ?
... by Israeli F16s, by Apache helicopters ...
And the Israeli women and children ... ?
... by Apache helicopters ...
And the Israeli women and children ... ?
... they would not have been killed ...
You don't like the sight of that:
... they would not have been killed if their democratically elected government did not bomb the Palestinians day and night.
Also there's always an excuse for it. There's always an excuse:
This is not an excuse ...
No?
This is explaining reality. The reality is ...
It sounds like it:
... that we are a victim. We are victims. You slap me on my face - what do you expect [me] to say 'thank you' to you?
And who were those women and children in the Israeli market? Weren't they victims?
Why don't you talk about Palestinian women ...
children who are being massacred by Sharon ...
I talked to Israelis about their violence. I'm to talking to you about that violence
carried out in the name of the Palestinians.
Aren't they victims as well – the Israeli women and children who are
blown up by your suicide bombers?
They are.
They are Indeed. I agree with you
– they are the victims of their own government.
They are the victims of the people who ...
So they're the victims of their government ?
Yes – who planted them on somebody else's land?
Their own government blew them up? Their own government blew them up?
They are the victims of whoever ...
It's not logical Dr Tamimi:
It is logical – 100% they are the victims of those
who planted them on somebody else's land.
Do you want Yasser Arafat to come back?
Well why not?
He's a Palestinian. Every
Palestinian has the right to come back.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you say Hamas is the one now who enjoys the
support. Is Hamas planning to seize
power from Yasser Arafat?
Not under the prevalent ... The current circumstances are not / the talk
is not about who seizes power ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But they've been waiting for a long time to seize
power haven't they?
No, no – never; never – not under the prevalent
circumstances. The current situation ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Your friend Khaled Mesha'al from Hamas said in May
2002: If we want reform let's start with
the leadership. Most of the leadership
in the Palestinian Authority needs to be changed. These people are not fit to reform:
That's the demand of all the Palestinians. There has been ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So he wants them to go. So you want to sweep them aside:
There has been so much corruption within the
Palestinian Authority and that's one of the reasons why the Palestinians have
not been able to do better.
TIM SEBASTIAN
How much openness and accountability would there be
with Hamas?
... Hamas is
a proper institution, not a tribe like some of the other factions.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It would publish all its accounts would it?
The elected leadership ... Yes ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
It would publish all its accounts ...
Of course.
TIM SEBASTIAN
... as it's
been doing up til now?
Well ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yeh?
This is a liberation movement. This is not a company. This is not a firm.
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, but you say it's going to be open and
accountable. What guarantees are there
of that?
If you become a government - a government has to be
accountable, a government has to be transparent, you have to prevent corruption
– but if you are a liberation movement, the liberation movements have a
different rule and a different style of ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
How so – you can be open and accountable when you're
talking about others but when it applies to yourself ... ?
No – if you want to talk about Hamas and the
structure of Hamas we can talk at length about this. Hamas has an elected leadership, Hamas has
accountability. Hamas doesn't have
someone who sits in the chair of leadership unaccountable for so many decades
and can do whatever he wants with the money.
The reason why Hamas is trusted by the Palestinians is that Hamas, all
the funds it gets ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
By some of the Palestinians – under a quarter of
them according to the opinion polls – but how much support do you think ...
? If Hamas joins in the leadership at
the Palestinian Authority, if Hamas in future forms a government, how much
support do you think Hamas is going to get from the outside world? None.
While it continues to advocate suicide bombings? Are you prepared for the international
community to withdraw its support totally from the Palestinian territories?
The international community will have no option but
to deal with and support the Palestinian leadership that is truly
representative of the Palestinian people.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It won't support an avowed terrorist group as they
see it:
Well we'll see it.
We'll see. One day – remember
when Margaret Thatcher said Nelson Mandela was a terrorist and he wouldn't be
allowed to set foot on British soil? Remember
what happened ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Different circumstances Dr Tamimi ...
Exactly the same ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Different circumstances.
Exactly the same – struggle, resistance, legitimate
struggle. You put up the struggle - you
represent the people – you achieve results.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're prepared to put that support in jeopardy just
for your ideas and your slogans about struggle and continuing struggle? You're prepared to gamble with the livelihood
of the Palestinian people in the Palestinian territories?
Do you think the Palestinians have a life? Do you think with all this that is happening
in Gaza, that happened in Jenin and elsewhere the Palestinians have a
life? Do you think Sharon is giving them
an opportunity to eat a decent meal and drink ale (?) ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, but the international community is doing what it
can. Since '93 the EU has contributed
over $2 billion directly and indirectly to the Palestinian Authority ...
Well permit me ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Member States of the European Union have contributed
the same amount. How much has the Arab
world done?
Let's talk about the European Union for a
while. The European Union is
hypocritically dealing with the Palestinian issue. The European Union has the opportunity to
deal independently with the Palestinian issue.
It's succumbed to US pressure.
The European Union ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Who is paying the salaries of the Palestinian
Authority Dr al-Tamimi? Who is paying
the salaries?
Who gives a damn about these salaries if they are
paid to people in order to suppress the Palestinians?
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's all very well for you to say. You're sitting here in a nice suit. You live in decent conditions in London. It's all very well for you to say: Oh the Palestinians can have another seven
thousand years of poverty simply for my ideas. It's all very well for you to say isn't it?
Well if there were a Palestinian Authority whose
objective is to make life better for the Palestinians, yes you are right but if
the Palestinian Authority's main objective / main function is to act on behalf
of the Israelis as a police force suppressing the rest of the Palestinians who
cares about such an authority? Even the
Palestinians in Gaza, in Jenin and Ramallah and elsewhere don't give a damn
about such an authority. They want an
authority that stands up for them, that talks about their rights, that fights
for their rights.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Oh and Hamas has just sat by and watched the
degeneration of lawful behaviour, the lawlessness, the gang warfare that's been
taking place in the Palestinian territories.
Hamas hasn't been contributing to that?
Of course it has hasn't it? Of
course it has.
Well if you have evidence, put it on the table.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well who has been responsible for what the UN
itself, not known as a great friend of Israel, has called the clashes and
showdowns between branches of the Palestinian security forces?
Hamas has nothing to do with it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Legal authority receding fast in the Gaza
Strip. Hamas has nothing to do with
that?
Nothing whatsoever.
These are power struggles within the Palestinian Authority itself which
was created by Israel in order to serve Israel.
Israel created the Palestinian Authority and Israel actually is
destroying the Palestinian Authority.
Hamas has nothing to do with it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
When will the violence end? What's the aim? When will the violence stop?
It can end today if the Israelis want. If the Israelis agree to negotiate a truce
agreement the violence can come to an end.
The problem is that the Israelis are so arrogant ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
What are the conditions for a truce?
No conditions?
Just come and talk; just come and talk.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Come and talk to who?
Talk to the people who ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Who?
... are
capable of dealing pain to you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Who? Who?
Who?
Hamas or Islamic Jihad, to the PFLP.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What - sit down with Hamas and Islamic Jihad?
Yes, why not?
TIM SEBASTIAN
An organisation dedicated to their extinction – the
Israelis should do that?
They have to.
They have no other option. When
the British Government sat with the IRA and negotiated a peace agreement that's
the way forward.
This slogan 'we don't talk to terrorists' is
nonsense. They have to. They have to talk to ... and the Palestinians
are not terrorists. The Palestinians are
the victims and if the Israelis want the way out they have no choice but to
come and sit and talk without preconditions.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And you have no preconditions? Hamas has no preconditions? When I asked one of your spokesmen, Mahmoud
al-Zahar a couple of years ago in Gaza and I asked him what it would take to
stop the fighting he couldn't give me a straight answer and in the end when I
asked him a couple of times he said: I'm
telling you frankly the attitude of Islam is not to accept a foreign state in
this area. So he was ruling out the
State of Israel in that area. You're
telling me he was wrong?
No – if we want to stop the bloodshed ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well you can you answer that question. No – this is important; this is an important
issue here Dr al-Tamimi. What would it
take to stop the fighting – the end of an Israeli State? Can Israel live side by side? Has Israel the right to exist?
The current violence can be stopped without having
to talk about the end of Israel.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Does Israel have the right to exist?
No, as far as the Palestinian is concerned ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No?
No – of course not.
Of course not.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So what's there to talk about then? Isn't that a precondition?
No, no, no ..
TIM SEBASTIAN
You said sit down with no preconditions. That's a precondition ...
You see, that's blackmail. That's blackmail.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What's blackmail?
This is what the Israelis and the American[s] are
doing ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
What's blackmail?
They say to us:
Unless you recognise Israel's right to be in your house on your land
we will not talk to you. We say to
them ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
I didn't say that.
I said 'right to exist':
Israel has no right to exist in my home, on my
father's land – has no right to exist.
It may exist despite me. It may
exist because it is powerful, because it is supported by the Unites States of
America but I will never as a Palestinian, I will never give legitimacy to a
state that is created on land robbed from my father, from my grandfather and
from my mother.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So there are / that's your precondition then?
No – you ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You tell me one moment there are no preconditions
and then you've just been listing them:
... you need
to make [a] distinction between two things – between an immediate stop to the
violence and that can be achieved and then we can have a truce for thirty years, fifty years, whatever
that can be agreed upon. People don't
need to kill each other. Let future
generations deal with the problem but if you want to say to me today we can ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So a truce with no progress whatsoever on any of the
major issues?
No, of course ...
Of course ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
A truce lasting thirty years?
A truce is the beginning of solving some of the
immediate problems. Once you agree to
stop the killing then we can talk about other things. We can talk about how we disentangle but if
they are not willing to talk ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
What is there to talk about when you say Israel has
no right to exist? ...
No – you see ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You want them to sign their own death warrant and
then you'll talk to them?
... even [if]
they come and negotiate with me for instance, the Israelis, I will still say it
to their faces: Your entity is an
illegitimate entity. It was created
through theft and robbery on my land but if you want this vicious cycle of
killing to stop now for a while it can be done but if the Israelis are counting
on an absolute recognition of their legitimacy that they will get from no-one.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So ask your friends in Hamas to send a message, a
public message to the rest of the world saying:
We are ready for talks.
Of course they are ready for talks. They've said that. They've said that so many times. They've said ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
When?
When? When did they last say it?
Fifty days ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
When did they last say it? When did they last say it?
Fifty days of unilateral ceasefire ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr Azzam al-Tamimi, when did they last say it?
Sheikh Ahmed Yassin made this initiative before he
died. The Israelis ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
That's a long time ago.
You bring me ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
When did they last ... ? You tell me they keep saying it and you can't
tell me when they last said it:
No – you tell me / you bring me an Israeli who is
interested in talking.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And meanwhile you advocate the suicide bombing. You said on an internet chat forum early in
2003: 'For us Moslems martyrdom is not the end of things but the beginning of
the most wonderful of things'.
If it's so wonderful to go and blow yourself up in a
public place in Israel why don't you do it?
Martyrdom is not necessarily suicide bombings as you
call then. Martyrdom is ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, please answer my question. It was a serious question.
I'm trying to answer it ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why don't you do it?
I'm trying to answer it because this is a
concept. Unless it is explained, how can
you answer it? Because martyrdom means
giving / sacrificing yourself for a noble cause. Now these bombings, the human bombs ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you prepared to do this or not?
I am prepared, of course.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You would [go] and blow yourself up?
No. I'm
trying to explain to you ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ah – so it's okay.
So that's just for the poor and the disillusioned to go and blow
themselves up? You would not be prepared
to do it ...
Most of the ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
... you
advocate other people to do it?
Unless you give me a chance to explain ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please ... Please ...
Not a single person of those who bomb themselves,
bomb themselves because they are desperate or poor. It doesn't happen because of this. They do it because they want to sacrifice
themselves for a cause after all avenues have been closed before them. If the Palestinians today are given F16s and
Apache helicopters ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No – please come back to my question. Please come back to my question. Why if it is so glorious and honourable to do
this, why don't you do it?
I would do it ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
When?
If I have the opportunity I would do it ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
When are you going to do it?
When? If I
can go to Palestine and sacrifice myself I would do it. Why not?
TIM SEBASTIAN
So what's stopping you?
I cannot go to Palestine. I cannot go to Palestine.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You simply can't get in?
No, I cannot get in.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why not?
I cannot get in because I am not counted as a
Pales[tinian]. When my home town was
occupied I was outside Palestine and I just wasn't counted. I'm not considered by the Palestinians as a
legitimate Palestinian / by the Israelis as a legitimate Palestinian. So as much as they don't recognise me I don't
recognise them.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So this is the reason - the only thing that is
holding you back from strapping on a suicide belt is the fact that you can't
get back to the Palestinian territories?
You see sacrificing myself for Palestine is a noble
cause. It is the straight way to
pleasing my G0d and I would do it if I had the opportunity.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Not according to Grand Sheikh Mohamed Said Tantawi
of the al-Azzar Mosque in Cairo. He says
groups that carry out suicide bombings are 'the enemies of Islam'. He was speaking last July at the World
Conference of Islamic Scholars.
Yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
He says they are 'the enemies of Islam' and that
this is 'a distortion' – what you're putting forward is 'a distortion' of Islam
...
And he changes his opinion three times. At one time he hailed them as the best and
most noble acts; at other times he change his mind because he is appointed by
the Egyptian Government and whatever the Egyptian Government tells him to say
he will say. So when they told him ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
What about former Prime Minister of Malaysia,
Mahatir Mohamed: 'Our salvation will not
be achieved by blindly killing innocent people, rather we should plan and
execute a long-term development plan to excel in all fields'?. Why don't you advocate that - a long-term development plan to excel in
all fields' – wouldn't that be better?
Why don't you give life to the Palestinians first
and talk about stopping all of this? The
Palestinians have no life. The
Palestinians are killed day and night ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
And you want to take even the life that they have
with a suicide belt?
I don't. I
don't ... You see nobody needs to tell
the Palestinians what to do. The
Palestinians are putting up this struggle because they are being pushed and
pulled and kicked day and night.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Alright.
Azzam al-Tamimi it was good to have you on the programme.
o0o