OrchidSafari
Topic: Giving and Getting Advice on the Web,
or The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions
Moderators: Janette Harris and Kathy Barrett
Wednesday August 30, 2000
Present were:
Jade
John_in_Arcadia,_CA
sparkysteve_of_Boca_Raton
smartrussell
Karen_Rolla,MO
CJ-Orchidflowerchild
barbara_in_no._CA
janetteh
ClareinLA
Ellensmithown
Thomas_in_Richmond_VA
Jade
neil_-Israel
Ed_in_SAT
Kathy_in_N_Calif
MarilyninOttawa
Fleur_in_cool_Tasmania
Steve_in_the_Adirondacks
Mary_Lou
Ahorchid
Jose41822
Susan-from-Oregon
Zeynep
Randy,_MI
Gretchen_from_western_NY
janetteh
Tonight we will be talking about advice, both giving and receiving. We want
to get your opinions and ideas on this subject, but first a few disclaimers.
We will be talking in general terms and our comments are not being aimed
at anyone. If we step on your toes, it wasn't intentional. I think that
from previous chats, we all know how everyone feels about flames and people
who bully and have a "my way or the highway attitude" when it
comes to answering questions. So we will not get into personalities.
First we will talk about taking advice. About four years ago, I was on
a chat and someone was talking about how they did something. Bob Wellenstein
got to questioning them as to why they did it that way. The answer was because
someone had told them to. Bob's point was that the person had not thought
about the advice or if it was practical. He came up with his "Rules
on Advice" which was promptly renamed "Robert's Rules on Advice."
So here we go with Bob's rules.
Rule #1. Evaluate the source. Does he/she grow plants at the level to which you aspire? A lot of people are happy just to keep them alive and flowering - others shoot for the max. Any comments?
Mary_Lou
Some of the best information I have had on the net has come from Bob! He's
the greatest guru in his areas of expertise.
ClareinLA
I fall into that 'alive and flowering' group.
sparkysteve_of_Boca_Raton
I am also--it all depends on your free time and what you expect to get from
them.
Kathy_in_N_Calif
My first comment is how do you know how the person grows? After all we are
on the Internet here. In societies one can see the person's ability to grow
nice orchids. Here, online, we are stuck with judging from the tone of their
posts, their willingness to answer questions, and admit when the are stumped.
Ed_in_SAT
Excellent question: how do you know? Seems to me that each person must learn
to evaluate what is being said in terms of: does it make sense?
janetteh
Kathy, I think these first rules would be for situations with local people.
We will discuss internet situations when we get through here.
Karen_Rolla,MO
Kathy, about all you can do is try to get very specific answers from the
person asking for advice. Find out what type orchid they're asking about
(many don't tell you w/out prompting), something about the light, feeding/watering
practices, etc. I would say my version of this rule would be 'go
for good culture'. Or 'first, do no harm' ;-)
ClareinLA
But "do no harm" can be difficult. The best advice I ever got
was to rip plants out of their containers and leave them on the GH floor.
A tough benign neglect. (Children don't try this at home)
sparkysteve_of_Boca_Raton
Best story I have is about my Phal. Sarah F. Pridgeon that was out in full
sun in my pool patio - bloomed every summer - well after people telling
me it was under stress and weak
I moved it in some shade--well she died on me!!!!
John_in_Arcadia,_CA
I was once given some very good advice by Terry Root of the Orchid Zone
but I was not able to follow it as I didn't have the help available constantly
as he does.
janetteh
Rule #1A. Are they speaking from experience or simply repeating what
they heard from someone else? Is their experience of long enough term
to have properly and sufficiently evaluated what they are saying?
John_in_Arcadia,_CA
I absolutely agree. You have to know if the person really does follow his
own advice.
smartrussell
I might whisper 'be careful' on this: sometimes good advice can come from
someone who does not practice it...think of the example of the doctor who
tells you "eat right and exercise" and he himself obviously does
niether...do you disregard his advice because he does not practice it?
John_in_Arcadia,_CA
Eli - we all frequently know better than we do!! LOL However, you are completely
correct. Evaluate the info not who gives it.
Mary_Lou
I plead quilty to being one who does not always follow my own advice on
culture. Don't have help and lots of times physically can't do the job.
But that doesn't mean I don't know what to do! Nothing got repotted this
spring in my shadehouse. I wish I could remember all the things I heard
at seminars! At times my mind is like a seive.
Ed_in_SAT
Certain things do not constitute authority for advice: 'everyone else does
it', 'we've always done it that way', 'they say', 'someone said', 'I heard
this at a seminar'...
Kathy_in_N_Calif
On point 1A, I'm guilty of that A LOT! Repeating only what I've heard. I
*think* I properly attribute the comments, but I'm not sure I always do.
This is because I've been growing orchids for only 5 yrs, and there's a
lot of conditions I haven't experienced yet, but I usually learn from other
people's mistakes, so I pass on what I've heard. So my comment would be
to cite your source if you are doing that.
MarilyninOttawa
When I first began growing orchids, I was told by persons with large seemingly
healthy collections, never to fertilize paphs. I didn't for years until
I learned through experiment and observation that some fertilizer was not
a bad thing. I had no way of evaluating the original suggestion as the evidence
was to the contrary: their unfertilized paphs flourished! Later, many experienced
growers (and articles) suggested that fluorescent tubes needed to be replaced
after 9 months. I was skeptical so I did the experiment and discovered that
all that good advice was rather misleading. I guess this means that each
of us still must learn within our own context.
sparkysteve_of_Boca_Raton
You hit it right on the head Marilyn--experiment and observation--the MOST
important things in learning how to grow orchids--also relates to ANYTHING
in life!!!
John_in_Arcadia,_CA
I was told the same thing about Paphs Marilyn. It took me a long time to
do some fertilizing and it was definitely worth it!
MarilyninOttawa
What was it that encouraged you to start fertilizing? Was it new advice?
John_in_Arcadia,_CA
I simply tried Jerry Grow and refused to just put it on some things and
not others. Everything gets it or none get it!! LOL
ClareinLA
I think that those who give advice, mostly, are doing it kind heartedly.
There's a big difference in someone asking for care of a gift Phal than
someone who has just received somthing from a collecting trip and wants
more "Baker" information.
MarilyninOttawa
From a giver of advice point of view, I feel that it is up to the giver
to ask questions as much as to formulate a response. For example, an oft-asked
question is: I have an orchid and it refuses to bloom. What should I do?
- Before providing hints and how-to, I need to find out if at all possible,
just what kind of orchid is involved, and what are the present growing conditions.
Even then, I cannot be certain that what I suggest will provide a solution.
Neither does the asker have any way of judging whether what I suggest is
correct.
Ed_in_SAT
I agree, Marilyn. We allow 30 minutes per 1,000 sq ft for familiarization
in every greenhouse we visit for the first time.
MarilyninOttawa
Probably the most awkward questions I receive have to do with virus. Is
my plant virused? (We can arrange for a test) If the plant is proven to
be virused, how can we easily tell the owner about the implications of the
disease and the ultimate and likely fate of that plant? It is not an easy
task. Any suggestions??
Ed_in_SAT
Teach people to screen with indicator plants. Chenopodium ameranthicolor
comes to mind. Quick, cheap, plants are weeds that grow almost anywhere.
MarilyninOttawa
I agree that we can teach people how to test, the challenge lies with telling
them that there is no cure.
Jose41822
Where can we get this?
Zeynep
Ed, can you elaborate, please?
Jade
Ed, can other Chenapodium species be used. I have plenty of Chenapodium
album but haven't seen any of the others.
Ed_in_SAT
Hi, Zey. Elaborate on indicator plants? Not much to say. A few plants react
specifically when infected with virus. A very few of these are leaf specific
so you can use each leaf to make a different test. You express some "juice"
from a suspect plant leaf or stem, put it on a few grains of sand and scrub
it across the leaf of an indicator plant. In a few days, a reaction will
appear if certain viruses are present. Chenopodium ameranthicolor happens
to be a widely available plant for this.
Ed_in_SAT
Jade. sorry, I do not have specific information on 'album' as an indicator.
janetteh
Rule #1B. What alterations of their advice are needed to adapt it to
my growing conditions? Growing conditions vary tremendously from one
region to another and depending on whether you grow greenhouse, under lights
or windowsill.
Ellensmithown
I think you have to take the advice and see if it applies to your conditions,
which vary with location, light, etc. I know there is an orchid graveyard
with my name on it, which was helped along with advice that I never applied
common sense to.
barbara_in_no._CA
That goes without saying, use you common sense when asking or receiving
advice.
Jade
I agree about evaluating advice for what makes sense but it is amazing how
many folks asking for advice don't seem to have any evaluating sense. They
will take any advice from someone who acts like they know what they are
doing even when others disagree.
CJ-Orchidflowerchild
Much like someone from the north (I can't recall were, exactly), who once
advised me to grow Den phal hybrids in full sun... I find I can bloom them
in an unobstructed east window with only a few hours of direct morning sun
(the window has a light tinting, even). Houston, TX light is vastly different
from Washington State light (just pulled a place name out of the air, the
person was not from there).
smartrussell
An excellent example of point-of view, CJ!
Ed_in_SAT
Most English greenhouse books describe culture above the 50th parallel.
They are closer to the North Pole than Houston is to the Equator.
Fleur_in_cool_Tasmania
And Tasmania is so close to the Antarctic and our sun is very week. Although
the UV is very high.
Ed_in_SAT
But you do add supplemental red spectrum light, aka incandescent?
Fleur_in_cool_Tasmania
No, just grow Pleuro's that love low light.
Ellensmithown
Kathy made a good point about naming your source of information. What works
in Cal. or Texas isn't successful in the northeast.
John_in_Arcadia,_CA
How true - that is why I have asked every newcomer to add their place of
abode (as
Keeper of the CyberPeace)
Ed_in_SAT
I'm not sure we want to apply this to everything. Principles of good culture
apply very generally. It is the fine points that need a bit of tuning and
adjusting.
janetteh
Rule #2. Always bear in mind that you can never change just one thing
in your culture. All things are interrelated. Change mix, you may have
to water more or less. If the mix is more water retentive, you may need
to increase air movement, temperature, etc.
Ed_in_SAT
I agree. Good growing is good balance of factors. These may vary and the
balance may differ but the culture can be fine anyhow. We saved a grower
multi thousands of facility dollars by changing the nutrients in his fertilizer
vs rebuilding a greenhouse range.
John_in_Arcadia,_CA
How true, Ed. Also a GH can change over the years and the samething you
did several years ago no longer works! ie - neighbor's tree shading the
GH now!
Ed_in_SAT
How true, John. EVERY greenhouse changes with time. Re: light for Phals:
we grew them in central New Mexico under clear fiberglass. Secret? We could
keep leaf temp where we wanted it with little effort.
Kathy_in_N_Calif
Recently someone posted Bob Gordon's rule that everything is in balance
light/water/fert/temps, one changes, it pulls all the others with them...
the 'soundness' of advice can sometimes be quite thunderous.
janetteh
Rule #3. There is always something more to learn. The complexity
of growing should be humbling as well as challenging.
Karen_Rolla,MO
Amen to this. Kind of like raising kids ;-) About the time you think you've
got things figured out, things change!
Mary_Lou
Rule #3 is the best one. If we forget that, we are really stuck. I have
learned more on the net than I ever was able to pass on. I think what gets
us so hooked on orchids is that no one person can every know it all!! It's
just too big a subject. If you doubt that check out the orchiguide digest!
janetteh
Rule #4. You can often learn as much from a bad grower as you can a good
grower, if you can figure out what the bad grower is doing wrong.
ClareinLA
As to Rule #4, why bother? I mean we are talking bad growers, not someone
who just killed a beloved plant.
Ed_in_SAT
A bad grower is any of us ten years ago. We must grow along with the plants
if we are to grow well year after year.
John_in_Arcadia,_CA
That advice is obviously from someone who grows things well and has for
a long time!!
jim4eq
One rule I would like to see passed by the committee (*G*) is the rule of
12's. Must have been growing orchids 12 months, have at least 12 orchids,
and read 12 books/magazines/people. On a couple of forums, I've seen one
person give advice on psychopsis, the person had one plant, owned it 3 months,
and been growing orchids a total of 5 months. Several times, the person
gave erroneous advice that would kill a psycho in other culture than the
way the person was growing it. (PS: two months later the person emailed
me for help, I thought about referring her to herself for advice!!) I move
that we vote on the motion!!
Zeynep
Good rule....LOL
janetteh
Just 12's, Jim. I know some commercial growers who are hesitant to give
advice and they have been growing for 12 years.
smartrussell
A grower near my area told me he used a 20-20 realtionship...at least 20
orchids, at least 20 months....he used this about their being permanently
hooked on orchids, but I think it is a good standard about advice too.
Susan-from-Oregon
I've been growing for 20 years now. Each time I move or change growing conditions,
I have to relearn how to keep my plants happy. Each time I change media,
I'm a beginner again. Each new genus....Beginner again.
janetteh
Susan, I don't know any GOOD orchid growers who consider themselves experts.
They all think of themselves as beginners.
John_in_Arcadia,_CA
That is the beginning of knowledge I think.
janetteh
Rule #5. Give the advice some careful scrutiny. If you decide to follow
the advice, experiment first with a few plants.
Kathy_in_N_Calif
Rule 5 - experiment with a few plants... I learned that from Ed! Of course
one has to have sufficient plants to experiment with, and that's where Barrett's
Law of Added Orchids comes into play. If one plant is failing to thrive,
buy another orchid! Takes your mind off the 1st one. If the 1st one grows
Great! If it dies, well, then you have to buy another orchid to make yourself
feel better... etc etc etc. Plants accumulate in no time!
janetteh
Rule #6. Not all good growers necessarily know why they are, even though
they may think that they do. For example, they may share a dozen "tricks"
with you that they feel work, but maybe they just happen to live where the
water quality is excellent and that is the reason for their good results.
Ed_in_SAT
No argument here.
ClareinLA
But, Ed, doesn't it take more than just good water quality. Maybe all those
tricks take into consideration, light, humidity, air circulation, etc.
Randy,_MI
How about a good grower in Florida might not be able to raise Phals in the
far North?
Ed_in_SAT
It takes balance, Clare, but poor water quality is a discouraging thing
to have to deal with.
As to the Florida guy growing up north, turn it around and look at Ron Hauserman.
One of the really great growers in the north and now in the south. Bob Betts,
a great grower in England, a great grower at Signal Mountain, a great grower
in Houston. I could name 50 more.
Randy,_MI
My point was poorly stated--a grower in Florida giving advice to someone
growing in the
North would take humidity, warmth, etc. for granted--before giving advice
be sure the conditions the asker is growing in.
Mary_Lou
As far as rule #6 - someone like Terry Clancy has all the latest technology
in a state of the art greenhouse and while I admire his expertise and his
plants I cannot possibly use his methods in my little backyard! He is one
of the great growers (wholesale only), makes some of his own crosses, and
sometimes wins awards at our Judging Center in Miami. An example of a good
grower whose methods most of us cannot copy.
janetteh
Rule #7. There seems to be an inverse relationship between a grower's
knowledge and his/her eagerness to share it. To overcome this, don't
be afraid to ask questions of those you think can help you.
ClareinLA
Rule #7. I've never seen a good grower wearing a sign that says "Ask
me".
Mary_Lou
Oh Clare, that is a hoot! Years ago I was helping to write a culture book
for SFOS and my questionaires were generally very well answered by the growers
we selected. One however, in a telephone interview, gave me growing tips
on Den. phals that he made me promise I would not reveal! Can you beat that?
I had to honor his request at that time but I hated that. I had secret knowledge
that I could not share for many years.
Ed_in_SAT
Hey, be fair. Nobody ever asked help of Frank Fordyce, George Vasquez, Robert
Fuchs without getting a fortune in free help and good advice.
ClareinLA
Ed, that's true. BUT, you have to be the one to ask. For someone new to
the hobby that can be rather scary.
Kathy_in_N_Calif
And I was that way for a long time. Lois finally had to kick my butt to
tell me to go and talk to Fordyce. (I'm really shy inside) But once I did,
man, there are times he drops a comment and I didn't even know that I didn't
even know that. Light bulbs click on.
Clare, but have you ever been 'shut down' after asking?
janetteh
I haven't. I'm sure that there are some out there who would, but I feel
that their numbers are probably small. Thank goodness!
ClareinLA
Frankly, yes. It was more like "I ain't got no time for you."
And I'll agree Fordyce is a real gentleman, just like Ed.
smartrussell
Yes, but this can be hard when you ask two very knowledgeable people the
same question and they both give different answers!
janetteh
That's true, Eli. And sometimes neither of their answers is the right one
in your situation. I guess this is where trial and error and experience
and observation come in.
jim4eq
Yeah, after you try to help a few times and get blamed for the death of
a plant, ya become more reluctant. (no, no, more light does NOT mean putting
it in full sun right away, pity the poor pleuro)
John_in_Arcadia,_CA
I think, Jim, that is why many of us have think skins or are hard of hearing.
LOL
janetteh
Taking advice is easy when you are dealing face to face with someone. But
what about this wonderful medium called cyberspace, i.e., bulletin boards,
listserves, newsgroups, chats. How do you sort through the info you receive,
especially if you receive several conflicting answers?
smartrussell
Well, take everything Cum Grano Salis and moderately. If something you hear
seems good, try it partially, on a few plants, something of that sort, and
watch carefuly at all times
John_in_Arcadia,_CA
I am always very conservative with anything that I get in the Web. You never
seem to know if someone is trying something or not. Unfortunately that is
often the case nowadays.
Susan-from-Oregon
Most of the advice I've seen offered in cyberville is surprizingly good!
Gretchen_from_western_NY
I think that you have to use common sense and pick out the information that
wiill apply to the type of plants that you grow and your growing conditions
Kathy_in_N_Calif
As to giving/getting advice in cyberspace, the hard part is - READING the
posts. I mean really truly reading what the person has said. So many times
I'll read an answer and say... 'that's not what the guy is asking'... or
'he already said he tried that'... So take the time to read what the person
says.
John_in_Arcadia,_CA
Many people on the web really are trying to help so that has to be taken
into consideration. I think that common sense is the root of everything
in life today - orchids only being one part.
jim4eq
I ask who the person is, and go by the answer as to how much weight to give
the answer. (I've been *told* that I'm not the shy type, LOL)
janetteh
There is a lot of very bad advice being given though.
ClareinLA
Sometimes I think you can tell by how the answer is written as to which
one I would try.
And if is sounds really drastic, I'd look around some more.
Mary_Lou
I find that sometimes the conflicts are not real ones but seem to be because
the answers come in such brief comments. When you take into account all
our known facts as outlined tonight about how everything is in balance it
takes some doing to explain this to newbies who don't even know the genus
of their new orchid. At times it is hopeless for that specific person and
plant. And if you get the conflicting stuff together you find out they are
really agreeing.
Kathy_in_N_Calif
Yes! Questions on fertilizers, light, how to build a GH... all very long
answers, but dropped casually into a few lines. Years ago when we started
people took time to answer well, now its, yeah...been there done that.
Ed_in_SAT
We got an inquiry from a hobby grower last week. About 8 zip files of photos
and a good description. We were able to help him promptly. Point: the ASKER
has to do a little work, too. Poorly phrased or unsupported questions can
leave the willing advisor struggling for air.
janetteh
Good point, Ed
John_in_Arcadia,_CA
Yes knowing WHAT to ask is very important as much as the asking itself.
Randy,_MI
I always check advice in a book to make sure it's close, then I implement
changes. So why even ask?--helps give a different slant--more info., better
results.
Gretchen_from_western_NY
But a lot of the information in books is also ambiguous.
Ed_in_SAT
Why would you assume the book is correct?
Randy,_MI
Did you all miss the second part of my statement? The more sources of input,
the better the final result, that is why I verify from a book or a second
(or 3rd or 4th) source. Throw it all in a hat, stir it up and what comes
out should be good!
Jade
If there are conflicting suggestions I usually ask another more specific
question on the topic. That helps to sort things out.
MarilyninOttawa
I do not believe that there is any easy way for a beginner to sort out what
is the best advice when receiving two or more widely varying comments. First
of all, both recommendations may work (as in fertilize or do not fertilize
paphs). Secondly, some popular recommendations are no more than old wives'
tales as in (mix cool white and warm white tubes to get the perfect light
balance). It sounds logical so it is believed.
barbara_in_no._CA
I agree, just like my Chinese teacher said: "I can only show you the
moon by pointing my finger to it, but I can not bring the moon to you."
Kathy_in_N_Calif
That happens a bit here in OS! I jokingly call it the 'OrchidSafari Consensus'.
Widely differing advice on the same topic. Luckily because we are in 'real
time' questions can be asked back and forth and real help offered in the
conversation.
Ed_in_SAT
Hey, wait: anybody can go to the plant store and buy the best 6 pak of tomatoes
there. Same skill goes for orchids. We just go to a show and lose our confidence
in our own ability to select good stuff.
janetteh
Now on to giving advice. There were several questions posed in the prechat
hand out and that is a good place to start. What are your criteria for answering
someone's question? Do you have to have experience in that particular area
before you feel comfortable answering the questions? Or do you feel that
if you have read the answer somewhere or have heard someone talk about it,
then you could answer the question?
Randy,_MI
I handle this situation on a time basis--if the posting hangs out there
for several days, I give a description from a source, even though I haven't
grown that particular plant. I let the person know my source is a book or
whatever and not personal knowledge. I just can't let a question hang out
there unanswered and possibly lose another convert!
ahorchid
The problem with getting advice from the web especially for newbies is that
they really don't know what is good or bad advice. Any of us who have been
growing for some time can usually spot bogus info but sometimes even somewhat
experienced growers may be searching for help on new genus and fall for
bad advice. So always tread carefully.
Ed_in_SAT
Re: secret formulas and Rosetta Stones: Sure, there are proprietary formulae
for insecticides, fertilizers, etc. I know of few growers who have secret
they are unwilling to share. For the record, we have none. Also for the
record, the hobbyists we have advised for so many years get the same information
we sell to contract clients. Not as detailed and we don't spend all that
much time on each, but we only have one quality of advice: the very best
we know for any given situation.
ClareinLA
If I don't do well with a genus, I won't offer.
barbara_in_no._CA
I only listen, seldom advise.
Ed_in_SAT
I think everyone who gives advice should be willing to answer a few "why"
questions - with words that make sense. Orchids do not change basic laws
of physics, chemistry and thermodynamics.
CJ-Orchidflowerchild
Hear, hear! If it is necessary to use a large or complicated term, we must
at least explain the meaning.
smartrussell
Throw "complicated orchid genera" in there too. I know orchid
growers who, after 20 plus years of growing beautiful orchids, still think
"BLC" means bacon, lettuce and cheese.
John_in_Arcadia,_CA
Giving advice is always tricky, as what works in one place may not work
only a few miles away. However, general advice is usually helpful if given
in a true spirit of advice
Karen_Rolla,MO
John, in that spirit, I generally advise people that they have to understand
just that fact- that everyone's situation is different.
John_in_Arcadia,_CA
Yes that is it. One soon learns who is trying to be helpful on a chat and
who isn't or doesn't really care.
Mary_Lou
I seem to be one of the old timers on the orchid forums. First the gardenweb
and later the AOS. My main criteria for answering questions is mainly that
I know something about the subject!! LOL! Hehe! For instance I have never
been a windowsill grower, don't grow cool growers, know nothing about lights
etc etc etc. And I always try to qualify my answers by saying something
about where I grow and my conditions may differ from others.
janetteh
I think that is why it is so important to mention locale and growing conditions.
It is hard for me to give advice to someone who grows in their home because
I am used to greenhouse conditions.
Fleur_in_cool_Tasmania
I get asked about growing Masdevallias and Draculas all the time, my fault,
as there are all those pictures on my site. I try to give people the ideal
conditions required, and then how to adapt what they have. I ALWAYS tell
them my conditions are for here only and probably not suitable for most
other places.
Jade
I think the best advice I ever got both in person and on cyberspace was
when trying something new don't do it with all your plants at once. Moderation
sums it up.
jim4eq
When I give advice on the net, I usually preface it with my resume on that
genus. If I don't do well with them then I don't give advice, or attribute
it to who gave it to me. ie, Hoosier's said to do 'xyz'.
janetteh
How much information do you want the person to give before you would feel
comfortable answering the question?
MarilyninOttawa
I usually answer with a question or two to ascertain just what is needed.
You cannot formulate an adequate response if you do not fully understand
the problem.
Gretchen_from_western_NY
When I am asked for growing advice I usually tell people the most popular
way of growing a particular plant and then tell them how I grow it. Most
of my plants are in osmunda and given lots of water, not how most people
grow.
MarilyninOttawa
I could not answer a question about something outside my experience but
likely could direct the person to an alternate resource.
Kathy_in_N_Calif
Marilyn, you are a very kind woman. I must admit to my chagrin there are
times I scream at the computer monitor 'Go try a search engine! Any search
engine! Do you want me to chew your food for you!' LOL!!!! Obviously I've
been online too long!
Mary_Lou
Kathy - I have had exactly that same feeling on line LOTS of times!
MarilyninOttawa
I am not against spoon-feeding as it is sometimes called. People need to
learn how to learn. I believe that eventually, the learner will learn how
to search on their own. I admit that there are a few who try our patience
but most simply want reassurance. If I have the time to share, I will help.
Kathy_in_N_Calif
And that is why you are great, and I'm - well, we won't go there...
janetteh
What about when someone posts an answer that is obviously wrong? Do you
feel that someone should say something or should that answer just stay out
there in cyberspace for all to see?
Kathy_in_N_Calif
Well, I usually take the brave stand and wait to see if someone smarter
than me has noticed it too, and hope they say something first!
Mary_Lou
If I see something that is dangerously wrong I will usually try to word
an answer to counteract it without starting a war. When I first went on
the gardenweb forum a number of years ago people were being advised to use
all kinds of deadly pesticides in their homes. I was able to counteract
that by posting web site addresses where people could read for themselves
of the dangers. After a few months the incidence of this advice dropped
drastically. I pick my battles for sure.
janetteh
This subject has already been covered briefly by Kathy, but I had it in
my notes, too. So will repeat. One thing that I can't emphasize enough is
READ THE QUESTION AND ANSWER THE QUESTION. A lady posted a question on the
Orchid Forum about a large cattleya she wanted to divide and she wanted
to know how to determine where to divide it. She got three responses and
no one answered her question. They all went off on a different tangent.
ahorchid
I would think you should privately point out to giver of faulty info their
error and give them the chance to correct the problem before you squash
them. Be polite.
CJ-Orchidflowerchild
I feel it should be corrected. Or at least have the person explain their
reasoning. As far as correcting wrong answers, I believe the words "you
are wrong" should be avoided, the phrase "I disagree, here's why"
is much better.
janetteh
I agree.
Mary_Lou
CJ, that is very good. One of the things about the net is that flaming wars
can be started very quickly and if you doubt that - again see the orchidguide
digest sometimes! When we type something our tone of voice or facial expressions
that have so much to do with face to face discussions are absent. It makes
it much more important to try to word our posts very carefully. It is amazing
to me that many fast friendships are formed in the forums. I enjoy the comradeship
very much since I don't get around much anymore!!
Kathy_in_N_Calif
Yes, starting wars is the main reason why I don't correct someone.
Jade
I have trouble ignoring a piece of advice that it totally wrong. I usually
answer but diplomatically.
Randy,_MI
I correct to the asker only so as not to start a war, I e-mail their address
and give a source with my answer that they should check to verify which
answer is correct.
janetteh
Now on to something dear to Mary Lou and something that she just brought
up. (You jumped ahead of me, Mary Lou.) :-) One thing that really bothers
me personally, and I know that it bothers a lot of other people, is questions
concerning pesticides. Sorry, but I am going to get on my soapbox at this
point. And no shooting, please!!!
There are a lot of safe ways to work on pests that require no special equipment and don't put you, your family, your pets or the environment at risk. Therefore it really scares me when someone asks what to do about mealies (no other info given) and some one replies to use cygon, diazinon, or some of the more dangerous pesticides.
How do you feel about this? Would you feel compelled to say something if someone recommended cygon to someone when they knew nothing of their growing conditions (windowsill, greenhouse or other) or if they had small children or pets? Not to mention that no one ever recommends safety precautions one should take when handling these chemicals.
Kathy_in_N_Calif
Only after reading much of Aaron Hicks posts on rgo (I know we said we wouldn't
talk personalities but this is a good comment) I learned that there isn't
necessarily 'better living thru chemistry'. Ed has backed much of what I
read from Aaron. I still don't get involved in pesticide debates, basically
because I don't know much about them, but I agree with Janette and Mary
Lou in principal. Chemicals can be strong stuff and should not be taken
lightly. I also think that they should be used on a graduated scale. If
soap will do the trick, use it, if something more is needed then go slowly
up the scale (nuclear weaponry IS verboten, however.)
CJ-Orchidflowerchild
Personally, I do not like the idea of strong pesticides. In my own growing
area, I practice
"organic," or IPM methods. I usually suggest that a small outbreak
of scale does not a need for cygon make. The most powerful insecticide I
use on a regular basis is isopropyl alcohol. Actually, to this day, I have
not yet, nor do I plan to any time soon, bought or used any systemic insecticide.
I have yet to see the need. Somehow it worries me that someone can say an
insecticide is perfectly safe when they have to be in a full protective
suit to use them...
barbara_in_no._CA
It's never safe. But necessary some time.
Kathy_in_N_Calif
I agree too, use them in proportion to the 'threat'. One or 2 plants with
mealies is one thing, thrips or scale in the whole GH is another
janetteh
I remember one instance on the Orchid Forum when someone had recommended
one of the big guns for use on mealies. This lady bought a bottle of liquid
concentrate, took a Q-tip and swabbed in on the mealies. The next day when
the plant began to look sicker, she read the instructions. Then she posted
on the Forum wanting to know what she could do to save her paph. You just
don't know the ability level of people out there when you offer advice on
chemicals so the least harmful, the better is my point.
Jade
Because I grow my orchids using organic methods I give advice to others
following those rules. When others start suggesting pretty strong poisons
I usually refer the questioner to a web site that will give them more info
on the suggested poison. The choice is then up to them.
janetteh
Very good, Jade.
Randy,_MI
Only the manufacturer/seller should give recommendations on safety precautions
when handling chemicals.
Gretchen_from_western_NY
We take care of the orchid collection at our local botanical gardens and
there we use non-chemical pest control, where as in my own greenhouse we
use chemical control. I try to advise people of both methods and my take
on the pros and cons of each method
janetteh
I really got shot down one time on Orchid Forum because I got on my soapbox
about pesticides. Gave a lot of info and reasoning and was very polite.
I also pointed out that my husband (who is the bug man in this operation)
grew up on a farm in TX and learn safe pesticide use from his father. He
has his Ph. D. in chemistry. He has his pesticide license. If someone asked
him what to use on mealies or scale, he recommends a mix of alcohol, 409
and sunspray oil. He will never recommend anything stronger.
Mary_Lou
I haven't even used Orthene for thrips, which have ruined some great bloomings
for me.
Discovered the yellow sticky traps and that really helps a lot. I am planning
to get a LOT more of them. We all used to use such a lot of pesticides,
not only on gardens but also in our homes and on our pets for fleas. Jannette
is right, this is a hot topic for me. A lot of people don't know that if
their dog eats a dead snail containing that liquid poison that it will hurt
their dog! Just one example. You know we all can do a lot of good on the
net because of our lifes experiences with plants and chemicals. We don't
have to be chemists or scientists to have an affect because we can always
find those sources on the net when we need them to direct newcomers to them.
Kathy_in_N_Calif
True! And that's where knowing your chemicals comes into play. Being effective,
getting the job controlled, so you don't keep using them over and over.
Randy,_MI
Still on pesticides--does anyone know of a commercial grower that has a
fair-sized operation and doesn't use chemical pesticides?
janetteh
Randy, yes. But I understand where you are going with that question, Randy.
Most commercial growers want to make sure that they don't have any varmits
because word can get around and hurt your business. But most comm. growers
have been through some training in the safe handling of chemicals and are
subject to inspection.
Randy,_MI
Thank-you, that defines your stand on pesticides nicely.
Zeynep
CJ, you may never use systemics, cause they are probably not going to be
available, soon. Systemics will NOT be available in the market, meaning
they will not be producing it...
jim4eq
Which is a pain, since they are more useful than topical. I have plants
against a wall, hard to spray in a 180. The ants like to farm the scale
critters, (choice words untyped, but thought out loud!)
Gretchen_from_western_NY
CJ. I think it depends on how much contact you and your plants have outside
your growing enviroment. We are at the botanical gardens, where there is
a high risk of bringing critters home and we go to shows where you can pick
up creatures. If your plants are not evposed to critters I might agree,
but with a lot of exposure can come ugly infestations
CJ-Orchidflowerchild
An hour a day is not that much time. I'm not saying you have to inspect
every single plant, you just have to be aware of what is going on with the
plants, as a whole. BTW, a liberal dusting of 1 part sugar to 3 parts boric
acid on the floor, benches, etc will take care of ants, roaches, and other
such pests.
jim4eq
Until the next time you water, when it is gone. Face it, under your conditions
your methods may work, but shouldn't generalize to all others. I use organic
when possible, but with an outdoor exposure, I have little choice at times.
janetteh
CJ, my greenhouse is almost 3000sq.ft. and I have over 4000 plants if you
count compots. There is no way I can inspect everything the way you are
talking about.
barbara_in_no._CA
Just like we just went thru with our Q & A earlier, what is right for
you, may not be for the next person in the next state.
CJ-Orchidflowerchild
Either way, what you use is your choice, but I far prefer less dangerous
methods. I am not
going to say "I don't use chemicals," but I will say, "I
try not to use harsh poisons."
Mary_Lou
In Florida there are some pesticides only available to professionally trained
people, which includes most commercial growers who are all licensed in the
use. Unfortunately we can still see some pretty strong stuff for sale in
Home Depot. Directions on the bottle are not always complete because of
the terminology used - you are supposed to know all the levels of toxicity
and 'suiting' up is not necessarily on that label. Also which gloves are
safe for these chemicals is not well described. Some people have used thin
rubber medical type gloves! I recommend any of you who are interested in
the use of serious pesticides go sign up for your agriculture classes and
get the license. It's as simple as that.
janetteh
I agree with Mary Lou on the license. James got his last year. In NC it
is good for three years but the Ag Ext. Service sends you bulleting quarterly.
For personal use, the course is only one day. For commercial use it is one
week.
Randy,_MI
I have a 3000 square foot greenhouse that stays closed up 5 months of the
year (bug
heaven!) and I get shipments of plants in from all over the world every
few weeks (many with critters) and I could never make it without using some
of the `heavy' chemicals. I have seen several growers try to stay organic/use
IPM and it failed miserably and they have reverted. That is why I asked
if any commercial growers are successful with it, as I would love to talk
with them.
Kathy_in_N_Calif
How does everyone feel about 'off topic' posts?
janetteh
That was my next topic, Kathy. Situation: This is an orchid bulletin board.
But we have all kind of postings, such as: My dog died; My grandma is in
the hospital; We just got back from the beach and had a lovely vacation.
How do you feel about postings such as this?
CJ-Orchidflowerchild
They really do annoy me. Granted, we are all friends on the forums, but
an orchid forum is just not the place for (for example) airing your feelings
about your husband leaving you...
ahorchid
We are a family or so it seems but I do get tired of the generalites sometimes.
Would like more orchid advice or pictures or anything that relates to our
growing orchids
Fleur_in_cool_Tasmania
Do you mean here? Straying from the subject?
janetteh
I don't think that we have a real problem here, Fleur. I guess because we
have open chats where anything is game, folks are more attentive to the
subject matter when we have topics. Bulletin boards are another matter.
jim4eq
I don't have a problem with off topic, since I have a scroll button. But
most people use them sparingly, and I can ignore the trash
Mary_Lou
Are you refering to just the OS chats or the other forums for off topic
posts? Just to test the waters - Jose (tiosuper) has been in the hospital
recently but is expected home soon. Is that permissible?
janetteh
Mary Lou, there is a fine line there somewhere and I wouldn't begin to try
to decide where it is. Jose being in the hospital I think was appropriate,
but there is a lot of stuff that isn't.
Kathy_in_N_Calif
Here or anywhere. I read a usenet newsgroup on mysteries and its been overrun
by chatty kathys talking about any old thing that comes into their minds.
HUNDREDS of posts go on in a day's time. I can only manage it by 'killfiling'
some people. I see it happen in every orchid forum out there too. I don't
think it can be stopped, but let's face it. We are here to talk orchids.
Let me think about what I mean... I give you some advice, You say thanks.
I say you're welcome, you say by the way where do you live. I say Kalamazoo.
You say Geez I have a brother in Kalamazoo... meanwhile everyone on the
planet is reading this stuff and wondering what the heck this has to do
with orchids. You and I think we are conversing. The rest of the world says
we are wasting bandwidth... Who is right?
Mary_Lou
But I don't mind the off topic posts on the orchid forums. If I get bored
with them I can just skip over them. I don't always have time anyway to
read it all. Too much information on the internet - it can overwhelm us.
Kathy_in_N_Calif
I think it can be a slippery slope. I have no problem putting family news
in a newsletter, but I take it out of transcripts. I find that it keeps
me from entering into other forums. They seem to be a complete unit in and
of themselves, and will they let me enter too? Kinda like being the new
kid at school. [I see that here, too, when a new person enters the room.
I want to scream "Someone talk to the new guy!" -kb]
Randy,_MI
I believe you should try to stay on a thread of conversations on a board
or forum. Only go off on a tangent if postings are slow. The whisper button
is a great way to have off-topic conversations!
janetteh
OK. We want to lighten things up a bit, although they are pretty light as
it is. Every once in a while the little devil comes out when you see a posting,
and there are several answers that you would like to give. But since you
are a nice, polite, civilized person, you keep you mouth shut and don't
say anything, or give a very polite answer.
Let's have a little fun and let the little devil come out, and answer these imaginary postings.
"I just got back from the Chicagoland Festival and I bought a Catasetum bubba. I have never owned a catasetum and know nothing about it. How do I grow this baby?"
Kathy_in_N_Calif
"Are you crazy??? Whatever possesed you to buy an orchid you know nothing
about?" I've wanted to say that many times, but then I go to an orchid
sale and do EXACTLY the same thing knowing my friends online will save my
butt!
Mary_Lou
Okay Janette - I'll tell you all my secret! I would never answer that question
because I don't grow that genus!! That way everyone thinks how smart I am!
Kathy_in_N_Calif
Mary_Lou, you sly fox! I'll use that next time!
jim4eq
Janette, I usually laugh and go on to the next post. Or I put up a link
to AOS or Marg/Charlie Baker for culture sheets. If they are willing to
spend $20 on a plant, spend a little time/money on the culture (preferably
_before_ you buy it, but I'm guilty of the OOOOOHHHH factor as well, LOL)
janetteh
That is what I want to say, Kathy. Also, "Why didn't you ask the vendor
how to grow the plant BEFORE you bought it." I have also been tempted
to ask "don't you own any orchid books?"
Fleur_in_cool_Tasmania
I often get tempted to scream, 'Oh my God you didn't buy THAT did you? It
will never grow here/there'.
janetteh
I think a lot of these types of postings get back to what Kathy was talking
about earlier.... about wanting some one to chew your food for you.
Zeynep
There are many times, I told people to go to their local Public Library
and check out few books to familiarize oneself with orchids.
jim4eq
Or join a society and use their library, more books!!
Zeynep
Yes, I forgot that, I do mention when our society meeting is and invite
them to the meeting :-) That means possible new member
Jade
If I am not familiar with how to grow it I often check one of my books and
then refer the person to the book or the public library. I use the library
and am constantly suggesting books for them to purchase.
CJ-Orchidflowerchild
I don't think there is anything wrong with that question... I don't mind
answering those "I just bought this, can you give tips" questions.
The ones that bug me are the ignorant ones... Like "I just bought my
first orchid, what do I do when the flowers fall off?" Or, "Can
I divide my Dendrobium into separate plants?" Why is it people think
each growth is a separate plant?
Mary_Lou
Our bookstores and libraries here do not have good books on Orchids. Some
of them are written and printed in England!! Can you imagine? Even Fairchild
doesn't have a good selection. I can often recommend books from the AOS
bookstore. But I find that the AOS culture sheets leave a bit to be desired.
Most books don't give good advice for growing here. That's why we produced
the old Culture Notes from South Fl. Orchid Society (long outdated and out
of print) There is a new book put out with the help of Ruben Sauleda and
the Society but I have not seen it. I must check it out.
janetteh
Another one of my favorites that all of us have probably seen at least a
hundred times. "My phal is through blooming. Where do I cut off the
spike?" I am tempted to say, "Put the plant on the kitchen table,
measure up 4 ft. 6 3/4 inches from the floor and whack there." Phal
spike cutting is divided into two camps, and you aren't going to change
anyone's opinion in either camp. So I have just given up on answering that
question.
jim4eq
Art just hands them the chainsaw and says "go for it!"
ahorchid
I was going to mention a little light pruning with chainsaw but thought
it prudent not to mention it.
Fleur_in_cool_Tasmania
Talking of chainsaws, I may just have to borrow one to divide a Cym on my
porch. Thing is just too big.
janetteh
I like the chainsaw too. Hadn't thought of that one but I guess it is a
'man' thing.
janetteh
Now for the last one. I want y'all to really come up with some good answers
for this one.
"My Vanda (or whatever) won't bloom. What can I do?"
ahorchid
Need more info janette
CJ-Orchidflowerchild
Yeah, hate those. They leave quite a bit to be desired...
janetteh
"Wait until the next full moon and take your plant outside and place
it under an oak tree that is at least 50 feet tall. Then take all of your
clothes off, dance around the plant chanting "bloom, bloom, bloom"
while sprinkling stump water on the plant. This activity must continue for
at least thirty minutes to be effective." The only problem with that
answer is that I would probably get an email back wanting to know what stump
water is.
Steve_in_the_Adirondacks
That's what I always do!
Randy,_MI
Try raising cats?
jim4eq
Hard to get them to hold still for the 3 times a day misting tho!! ROFLMAO
Fleur_in_cool_Tasmania
What's stump water?
janetteh
Water that collects in the top of a rotted stump.
Kathy_in_N_Calif
Janette, you know stump water isn't the thing to do! Its stump water PLUS
Superthrive!
janetteh
Kathy, of course. The snakeoil of the orchid world.
Mary_Lou
Well the orchid forum on gardenweb came up with some interesting new uses
for
Superthive!! Giggle.
janetteh
What are some of the uses, Mary Lou?
Kathy_in_N_Calif
OK folks, since the dirt on Superthrive isn't forthcoming I'm going to hit
the hay! Thanks Janette for the best discussion we've had in a long time!
janetteh
Thanks to you, Kathy. Good night, all.
Kathy_in_N_Calif
Goodnight Chet!
janetteh
Good night, David. Boy, are we telling our ages. :-)
--End
Prechat Introduction
Help! My cattleyas are cantankerous. My phals have fizzled. My paphs
aren't perky. And my pleuros are pathetic. What can I do?
-- Tormented Orchid Lover in Toledo
Would you like to try answering this notice if it were posted on a bulletin
board? We all have occasion to seek advice on growing orchids but how do
you know who to listen to, if the advice has any merit, or even where to
go to ask your questions? There are plenty of venues out there on the internet
from chat rooms to list serves, newsgroups and bulletin boards. And there
is always plenty of advice being offered. Unfortunately a lot of it is misleading
and a lot of it is just wrong.
On Wednesday Aug 30, we will discuss advice from several vantage points.
First of all we would like to discuss taking advice from growers and hobbyists
with whom you come in contact, i.e., at orchid society meetings or commercial
growers in your area. Perhaps this is the easiest advice to sort through
as you can see what kind of a grower this person is and generally
their growing conditions are similar to your own. Then we will discuss the
advice we receive electronically over the internet and how do we sort through
this to arrive at what has merit and what just doesn't apply to our situation.
Then we will talk about giving advice. What are your criteria for answering
someone's question? Do you have to have experience in that particular area
before you would feel comfortable answering the questions?Or do you feel
that if you have read the answer somewhere or have heard someone talk about
it, that you could answer the question? How much
information do you want the person to give you before you feel that you
could answer? What about when someone posts an answer that is obviously
wrong. Do you feel that someone should say something or should that answer
just stay out there in cyberspace for all to see?
There are a lot of issues here and while we hope to have an interesting
discussion and hear a lot of different viewpoints, there will probably be
no definitive answers. This is like having a discussion on ethics (and in
a way it is). But we want to hear everyone's opinion given in a constructive
manner and hopefully we can all gain something. --Janette Harris