OrchidSafari
Topic: Alternative Methods for Growing Orchids: Coir
Moderators: Jerry Rodder and Kathy Barrett
Wednesday, August 16, 2000

Present were:
Jerry_No._CA
marleneann
M._Jade
Marla
joflo
John_in_Arcadia,_CA
barbara_in_no._CA
Thomas_in_Richmond_VA
neil_-Israel
Kathy_in_N_Calif
Lanceps
Karen_Rolla,MO
Robert_in_Long_Beach,_MS
jeanne23_from_oz
Steve_in_the_Adirondacks
Zeynep
Tolumnia_Matt_Rancho_Cuca
Jane5536
CJ-Orchidflowerchild
Sarco
janetteh
Jose41822

Jerry_No._CA
How many of you have tried the coconut coir? I wanted to try it for at least a year before recommending it. Coir is finely chopped coconut fiber.

Marla
I have been using it in various forms...

Robert_in_Long_Beach,_MS
At the cut flower ranges in Thailand they grow plants right on coconut husk. I guess that's the most primitive form. They grow huge Mokaras, etc. that way. I have received plants in coir but they stayed too wet under my conditions. I'd be interested to know how others handle it.

Lanceps
What is it? How do we use it? Does it work for most orchids? Seedlings?

Kathy_in_N_Calif
OK, Well Let me show some pictures of what coir is: ready? Coir comes in two forms, as far as I know. Compressed bricks, and compressed bales. That's an 8 inch chef's knife… The bricks are the size of a regular red brick. The bale is huge. Coir is available from Dyna-Gro, Jerry's Grow and OFE.

Ed_in_SAT
Actually, there are seven wholesale suppliers in the US and one in Canada. Coir is available in many forms and is not all that hard to get - in quantity. In small amounts, I do not know the market.

Jane5536
Is coir-the same thing as the fibrous pads they sell in wire hanging baskets in garden centers?

Jerry_No._CA
I believe it is a by-product of the fiber mats.

Kathy_in_N_Calif
What we are talking about is a fine ground up powder, like coffee grounds. This is a horrible picture, but that's what the coir that floats looks like, wet. The good stuff is a bit more granular, like coffee grounds, the 'chaff' is a bit more fibre. This is what the stuff that falls to the bottom looks like. Not much difference? Supposedly coir is mostly lignin, the woody structural portion of the plant (the heart wood) and so breaks down slowly.

Karen_Rolla,MO
It looks a little like peat in the photos.

Jerry_No._CA
You are correct it looks something like peat. However when it is wet and squeezed, coir does not stay compressed. And it lasts for years (I am told).

jeanne23_from_oz
Do the compressed bricks swell when water is added?

Kathy_in_N_Calif
Like crazy!!! That amount I cut out of the large bale filled four 6" pots.

Jerry_No._CA
The bricks and bales are soaked in water where the media expands up to 3 times. Then I transfer it to 12" pots for washing the salts out.

Kathy_in_N_Calif
This is what the mix looks like. I mixed 50% coir with 50% perlite by volume.
I put the coir bricks or chunks I cut off the bale into a large tub and let it soak. I'm still not sure if I should wait over night to allow the soft stuff to drop to the bottom, and only use the stuff that floats. Marla, what do you use? I figure since its mostly lignin then its probably all useable, not the same as bark where you discard the stuff that sinks and only use the floaters.

Jerry_No._CA
Kathy-- I poke the dry stuff so it gets wet. The entire bale is usable.

Marla
The one thing that I like about it is that the water drain away well without making it soggy and stays airy, damp and humid longer than bark mixes

Kathy_in_N_Calif
That's what I like too! I'll show some roots later and you'll see why I like that about coir.

Jane5536
Does this product stay moist? After all the rain we've had this summer--we are losing plants to rot because of torrential rains

Jerry_No._CA
Jane- although it appears that the coir is very wet after watering, I have found that it dries out about the same as fir bark. Note that my greenhouse currently reaches a daily maximum of 100 degrees at the present time.

Kathy_in_N_Calif
There are several methods I've heard of to rinse the salts out of the coir.

John_in_Arcadia,_CA
Such as?

Marla
I soak it and drain... soak again and add the perlite... drain and use it all...

Kathy_in_N_Calif
The best one I heard was to put it in a double layer of pantyhose and let it soak, then you can rinse and wring over and over and not make a mess.... But how to get it in the panty hose in the first place!!!!

jeanne23_from_oz
How to get it out would be harder I think

Ed_in_SAT
It itches like the mischief.

M._Jade
That's if you put the pantihose on with the coir in it. :-)

Marla
Just put the dry chunks in the pantyhose... then stick the whole thing in a bucket of water... kinda like making tea, to get it out... just turn the panty hose inside out

Jerry_No._CA
I like to wash it in pots. Only a small amount of coir exits from the bottom holes. Then I let it dry before using it. For that I use a large rectangular container.

Kathy_in_N_Calif
Probably the easiest is Jerry's method, just to let it expand in the tub of water, scoop it out into gallon garden pot, and rinse it out (he says 10 times). I had been scooping it out into a kitchen sieve and rinsing 10 times, pain in the neck.

Tolumnia_Matt_Rancho_Cuca
We experimented with coir mixes a few years ago and didn't like it. We are now experimenting with the coconut chips. As you know the leading supplier of orchid bark has gone out of business and so we are looking for an alternative to bark.

Kathy_in_N_Calif
That was another reason for me to look for an alternative, even at my small collections' size.

Jerry_No._CA
Matt- have you ever tried the straight coir?

Tolumnia_Matt_Rancho_Cuca
We experimented with coir mixes yes. Didn't like it at all. We have just started trying coconut chips. We do not sell the coir but we sell the chips

Jerry_No._CA
Matt- how has the response been?

Tolumnia_Matt_Rancho_Cuca
Have only been selling it for 1 month. We took 8 1/2 cu ft bags to the Santa Barbara Orchid fair and sold out. We have only sold one bag here in the store. Jerry - Do you mix the chips with other ingredients? We mixed it with perlite.

Karen_Rolla,MO
Do you all use it 'straight' or mixed?

Marla
I find that it works best for me mixed or in mixes

Jerry_No._CA
To make the coir media dry out faster perlite can be added. At the Santa Barbara show, the best of show cym was grown in coir.

Kathy_in_N_Calif
Matt, (Marla you can add in here if you have a different point of view) I mix coir 50/50 with perlite - depending on the plant I'm putting in it.

John_in_Arcadia,_CA
What size perlite do you use? [#3 -KB]

Marla
I have used 2/3 coir to 1/3 fine perlite, and everything in between there to as a top dressing.

Ed_in_SAT
Keep a close eye on leaf edges if your water is fluoridated and you use perlite. At the first sign of orange on the leaf edges, change water or potting mix in a hurry, then leach. Especially thin-leaved oncids & dendrobiums. Not sure why these suffer more.

John_in_Arcadia,_CA
Fluoridation reacts with perlite?

Ed_in_SAT
Perlite contains fluoride.

John_in_Arcadia,_CA
I didn't know that, then that would be too much fluoride.

Lanceps
Will it work for coastal people with 'good' humidity?

Jane5536
I'm not sure it would do as well here on Long Island so convince me :)

Jerry_No._CA
I don't have much information on other sections of the country. A sample was sent to Houston and the first feedback was positive. Ed- do you know if it is used in your area?

Ed_in_SAT
Yes, Jerry, it has modest use in the Gulf area.

Kathy_in_N_Calif
Marla, Jerry and I all have one thing in common (Matt too) - we all live in deserts! Hot, baking dry deserts. Keeping orchids 'evenly moist' can be difficult. (at least for me)

Kathy_in_N_Calif
Jerry, how did you first find out about it? I found out from you about a year ago.

Tolumnia_Matt_Rancho_Cuca
I've known about coir for several years from Ernie Campuzano.

Jerry_No._CA
It has been marvelous for all my orchids. Roots grow fast and develop rapidly. Very easy to repot the plants. All my orchids are in coir now. They are doing so much better.

Karen_Rolla,MO
Kathy, Jerry- do you pot catts in it?

Robert_in_Long_Beach,_MS
I've been having good luck with sponge rok and charcoal. About 50/50

Tolumnia_Matt_Rancho_Cuca
Just Sponge Rok and charcoal, nothing else? no bark, no coco chips? Interesting

Robert_in_Long_Beach,_MS
Matt, you can add an equal part of bark if you want. I usually add some bark for the Phals. The Paphs are in small plastic pots and do equally well with or without the bark. Just have to watch the watering. It can dry fast (not necessarily a disadvantage here in the humid South).

janetteh
We have several growers in our area who have gone to the sponge rock and charcoal and have really been pleased with it.

Karen_Rolla,MO
Jerry, how does the coir compare to using straight sphagnum? I've just repotted my phals into moss. It's very wet right after watering, too. I've seen some nice results since repotting into it.

Kathy_in_N_Calif
What I like about coir, over sphagnum moss is that it retains moisture evenly and easily rewets when dry. Doesn't need to be changed every 6 mos. Moss is a mess in my hands.

Jerry_No._CA
Last Nov. we received lots of cym seedlings which were repotted in coir. One of them even has a flower spike already. Yes, I know that is unusual.

Kathy_in_N_Calif
Jerry's Cymbidium seedling. Note roots.

Robert_in_Long_Beach,_MS
Good roots. My few Cyms like to be watered every day while growing, so I guess the moisture holding capacity of the coir is good for them.

Kathy_in_N_Calif
Here's a couple of Disas I put into coir. I was dreadfully behind in repotting and in danger of losing them, so I bit the bullet and put them in coir - again supposedly it doesn't break down in the constant moisture. They are in plastic net pots, lined lightly with coir fibre so the coir doesn't run out with daily watering. AND!!! I actually got it together enough to fertilize, and they are growing!

Tolumnia_Matt_Rancho_Cuca
So far they look happy!

Jerry_No._CA
Kathy- the Disas don't require much fertilizer. I accidentally use full strength bloom instead of 1/3 strength and lost a couple of plants.

Ed_in_SAT
Anything that will grow Disas gets my attention.

Kathy_in_N_Calif
I almost killed a Disa Foam 'San Francisco' from Pui Chin, caught it just in the nick of time, just as the tuber was starting a new growth, and they are still perking right along - knock wood!

Marla
Kathy, I did the same thing with a couple of small ailing stanhopeas and they are putting out new growths like crazy now.

M._Jade
Marla, did you put the Stanhopea in a coir perlite mix?

Kathy_in_N_Calif
Marla, I know you said that!!! Mine are going in this weekend into coir, any tips?

Marla
Yes Jade with just enough fiber to hold it in.... lots of new root growth too Kathy, just be sure to use a wire basket and only a thin layer of fiber so as not to impede any spikes that try to grow down through it.... the fiber is tough and if in a thick layer could be a problem for the spikes... 2/3 coir to 1/3 perlite... with fiber for the thin lining... not in the mix itself.

Jerry_No._CA
Also I think the coir saved my orchid collection when the electricity was turned off for 5 hours on the hottest day ever. The greenhouse was about 125 degrees. In fir bark the plants would not have survived.

Zeynep
Can you explain this comment please!!! You mentioned that 'In fir bark the plants would not have survived', can you explain why???

Kathy_in_N_Calif
Jerry explain your concept of high temp fluctuations and the passage of air through the pots. Its an interesting concept.

Jerry_No._CA
There is more contact between the roots and coir. Therefore the plant can absorb more water and survive at higher temperatures. I grow Paphs and Miltonia at high temperatures now. The plants don't look great but it is surprising that they produce nice flowers. At 120 degrees the flowers tend to vaporize.

Tolumnia_Matt_Rancho_Cuca
The coir tends to stay wetter longer and so when his evaporative coolers and fans lost electricity the temperature rose to 125. The fir bark would have dried out very quickly and fried his plants

barbara_in_no._CA
Your Disa survived in the 125° temp.???

Jerry_No._CA
Last year the Disas were in the greenhouse where the maximum temperature was 106 degrees. They were outside this summer.

Kathy_in_N_Calif
Jerry, is this the rose you saw at Orchid Zone? Or another one?
Jerry's Rose, growing in 100% coir.

Robert_in_Long_Beach,_MS
Now if we could only get that color into a Phal!

Jerry_No._CA
The rose was one I planted bare root the last week of January. The picture was taken 3 months later. Oh, it was planted in a 20 gallon pot in 100% coir.

Jane5536
Are your watering practices different with coir?

Jerry_No._CA
I now water about 4-5 days after fertilizing. Then I fertilize 2 days after watering. The pots recieve a medium flush during watering.

Kathy_in_N_Calif
The coir holds a lot of water. While my GH doesn't get as hot as Jerry's I am a poor mother, and my babies have to be dry too long sometimes, so I moved them into coir after experimenting with other mixes. I found that there was a puddle of water at the bottom of the plastic pots, which inhibited me from watering the coir pots along with the other pots. And if you make me stop to 'think' then that's a path to disaster. So I switched pots to paper pots and the puddle disappeared and my problem was solved. (I'll show more later)

Jerry_No._CA
Also I don't place anything like peanuts on the bottom of the pot. It is so easy just to add coir to the pot and place the plant. One problem though is that the bamboo stakes tend to wobble easily in coir.

Marla
I tried some in the paper pots to but found that they dried out way to fast for me... alas... no greenhouse for this desert grower! I like clay best but plastic stays moist longer...less watering... It really depends on the plants needs

Jerry_No._CA
Also the [diurnal] temperature [fluctuation] in my greenhouse is about 45 degrees. That has always been a help with both fir bark and even more so with coir.

Kathy_in_N_Calif
I did an experiment with coir after Jerry kept telling me how well his orchids grew in it. I started some (6) paph seedlings (from Stewarts) in the stuff in March 2000 in plastic pots. I've always had trouble with paphs. The roots rotted like crazy and general failure to thrive. I put that down to my being a bad gardener. Sometimes I have time to take care of them, other times I'm lucky to be able to water. I've tried fine bark and perlite; finebark/perlite with sphagnum cut into it; top dressings with bone meal; straight moss; you name it. Blecch, they all grew wrecked roots.

Marla
I like to grow my paph seedlings in a layered mix and they like it a lot better.... I alternate layer of fine bark mix and coir/perlite mix. Alternate layers.... bark, coir, bark, coir, bark

Kathy_in_N_Calif
OK, here come the root pics, don't say I didn't warn you! I hate to break your hearts, but these are typical for roots grown in bark - in my hands!!! I think you can see I have trouble growing paphs! This is Paph Prince Edward of York, imported from Eric Young Foundation, two years old, paid $75 for that seedling… That is 2-3 yrs old, approx leaf span is 6-7 inches tip to tip.

John_in_Arcadia,_CA
Disaster!!!!!!!

Charlotte_in_Calif
AAAGGGGHHHH! Kathy my heart goes out to you. Such a grisly scene!

Tolumnia_Matt_Rancho_Cuca
Yikes! Thats rated XXX Not suitable for young viewers!

Zeynep
I know what you mean :-(

Kathy_in_N_Calif
You think that's bad, John, you should have seen the ones in moss!! This is another typical paph root situation for me. I can't recall the cross. I have more pictures of roots from a variety of mixes, the ones from sphagnum are/were the worst.

John_in_Arcadia,_CA
A fraction better but not by much!!! Looks a little like some of mine did! LOL

Robert_in_Long_Beach,_MS
Sad. I find that 1/4 to 1/2 inch bark, charcoal, sponge rok (almost any combination) grows great roots under our humid conditions. Gotta water in the heat, tho. I also use the smallest plastic pot that will accomodate the roots. NEVER OVERPOT A PAPH!

Kathy_in_N_Calif
They weren't over potted when the went IN to the pot!! LOL!!! They just rotted like crazy for me. See? I have no trouble with other genera. Just these blinking paphs! So something had to give, so I tried Jerry's advice about the coir, and used some of Ed's common sense and only started it with some plants I had which I really didn't care whether they lived or died.

Jerry_No._CA
Terry Root gave me a Paph sanderianium that was 10 years old and never bloomed. They are truly slow growers. A year later I do have a new shoot. Who knows what will happen next?

John_in_Arcadia,_CA
Kathy have you tried any Lycastes?

Jose41822
My paphs are in peat perlite mix. I don't want to check the roots after what I've seen. Altho' I repotted some this spring and the roots were okay.

Kathy_in_N_Calif
I'm only using this for paphs right now, later this week I'm adding it to the stanhopeas. I have the Lycastes in a peat mud and paper pots (pic coming up)

OK so after, what?, 5 months in the coir the roots look like this and this. I unpotted them 2 weeks ago (8/00) I think you can see a marked improvement for me. Those are sukhakulii crosses from Stewart's

Jerry_No._CA
They look good Kathy.

Tolumnia_Matt_Rancho_Cuca
Muy Bueno!! and the leaves look very happy too!

Kathy_in_N_Calif
I moved the paphs into paper pots because I didn't like the water that collected in the bottom of plastic pots. In paper pots you can still flush with water, and the pots dry out, allowing for air movement and the coir still retains an even moisture.
[I should explain this better. One of the tenets of good orchid growing is to flush the pots when watering to leach salts etc. Coir pots stay wetter longer than the other pots in my collection, so I'd water the others well and have a tendency to dribble water into the coir pots. I have always found this 'dribbling' of water leads to root rot, so I wanted something to aid in the evaporation of the water from the coir. Paper pots answered that question for me in my conditions. The coir stays evenly moist thru the depth of the pot, stays airy, and no puddles at the foot of the pot. -KB]

Jose41822
Definite improvement Kathy.

Kathy_in_N_Calif
So based on those roots I moved every paph into coir/perlite. While this might not be a solution for you, it does give you another option if you are having trouble. People who know me know I have trouble with sphagnum moss, drying out, rewetting. I think its a pain in the neck. Coir rewets easily. Placing a topdressing of fine bark will eliminate splashing it out of the pots while watering too. Or using a Dramm water breaker.

Marla
I have a lot of trouble with things drying out too fast and I have help that problem by adding the coir as a top dressing and washing it down into the pot on plants that dry out too fast. The mix still stays airy but hold moister just a little better

Kathy_in_N_Calif
Marla, I tried that with a Coelogyne cristata last week! I thought the same way!

John_in_Arcadia,_CA
Doesn't the paper pot disintegrate quickly?

Jose41822
How long do these pots last? Can they be used in the house (not greenhouse)?

Kathy in N Calif
John, actually, it might be because I'm such a poor waterer, but they don't break down at all for me. Steve Gettle of Sunset orchids puts all his lycastes into paper pots and peat/perlite mud, which works well for their roots. I found that out when I repotted them. So Lycastes are in peat and paper pots, phals are in Wang's mud and paper pots. My catts are in bark and lavarock and other assorted goodies and plastic or net pots. That's my story and I'm sticking to it! *G* [Jose, I'd imagine they could be used indoors too. -KB]

Jose41822
Last Saturday the judges in our centre were saying that underpotting paphs affect the quality and size of flowers.

Robert_in_Long_Beach,_MS
Depends how you handle them. I get really good roots. If you have enough roots and provide the water and fertilizer the plant will get what it needs. It's been my experience that paphs are very unforgiving of too wet conditions at the roots and small pots help prevent that.

John_in_Arcadia,_CA
Kathy - must you fertilize in the coir? (I hate to but have started doing so with Jerry's stuff)

Jerry_No._CA
John- I have spoken to a couple of nursery people. They said they would never try coir again. When asked how much they washed it they reply was twice. I think that is not sufficient and may have been their problem. Also whatever fertilizer they used with the coir was not compatible. I don't know why.

Kathy_in_N_Calif
So, if you are in a challenging environment, like Jerry, Marla and I, and are having trouble, then this *might* help you out. Kinda like the book 'The Right Stuff' about test pilots trying 'A', then 'B' then 'C' on their way down in a crash in order to save themselves. Don't give up at 'B'...

Robert_in_Long_Beach,_MS
Seems the moral of the story is that different growing conditions dictate different potting practices. Even in the same town people use radically different practices and get good results. Bottom line: if it's working for you, it's right.

Jerry_No._CA
Kathy- why don't you post the pics of the cym setup. Best idea I've had in a long time.

barbara_in_no._CA
You mean since last week? LOL

Jerry_No._CA
Just wait until next year, I will have something worthwhile.

Kathy_in_N_Calif
OK, Jerry, as long as we billed our talk as oddballs and oddities, here's Jerry's brilliant idea about a good cheap greenhouse structure! No fooling. Palate racks!!! Front: picture Side: picture Can't you envision just placing siding on it and viola!! Instant greenhouse!

Jerry_No._CA
Those are the cyms that were small seedlings last Nov. They are much larger now.

Kathy_in_N_Calif
I hear a stunned silence? Too simple for words, right? Cheap and easily available too. Palate racks, like what they use at home depot for shelves. It took, what 1 1/2 hours to put the thing up? 2 people.

Jerry_No._CA
The structure and bottom shelf required about 4 hours with 2 of us. The top required another 3 hours for me.

ahorchid
I wonder if I could borrow our pallet racks from work. I doubt it. think they would get cold in our winters. lol

Marla
I like it ! The simpler the better! :)

Steve_in_the_Adirondacks
I guess I don't get it. How does that become a greenhouse? Looks like a nice outdoor growing area and I see that it could be covered. I don't see a greenhouse.

Jerry_No._CA
It is not a greenhouse but could be easily converted to one by having two of the pallet racks as sides. Put any kind of roof structure on top. Add plastic sides to the pallet racks. The nice thing is that the framing includes a place for shelves and for hanging plants. And the spans can be up to 14'.

Steve_in_the_Adirondacks
OK. I can see that with 2 of them it could be a greenhouse. Probably would work fine in a climate where little or no heat was needed.

ahorchid
That's a Cal gh Steve. Don't think it would work for you in Jan. lol

janetteh
Steve, I don't think that Jerry has to worry too much about snow loads.

Marla
Are all the cymbs planted in straight coir or 50/50?

Jerry_No._CA
The cyms are in 100% coir.

ahorchid
How often do you water them Jerry? How often would you have to water in typical cym mix?

Jerry_No._CA
They are watered about every 5 days during the summer.

Lanceps
How about coconut chips?

Kathy_in_N_Calif
I add them to my Cattleya mix, bark, lava rock, coconut chunks. Again because everyone says the bark these days is no good many people are adding chunks to their mixes. Fordyce is. Mary Nesbitt (California Orchids - wholesaler) is. I like coconut husks, but if you use too much in the ratio it is springy, and the plant won't 'firm up' in the pot. Or I should say it doesn't for me...

Karen_Rolla,MO
Will bark eventually just disappear?

janetteh
Probably not disappear, but it becomes a question of quality. I don't think that you are going to see bark that is of the quality you need to grow orchids in. Better for mulching the flowerbeds.

janetteh
Where are y'all getting the coconut chips?

Kathy_in_N_Calif
I have a local lady that I get them from. I'll bet she gets them from OFE.

janetteh
That is the problem...finding the stuff that you need. And I don't like dealing with OFE.

Kathy_in_N_Calif
Well, Matt says he sells it... kidding, he's in S Calif! Shipping would kill you!

Kathy_in_N_Calif
OK, well that's all I had prepared for the evening, any questions?? Comments?? Should we take this on the lecture circuit? Marla, thanks for being here and adding your expertise too! Folks, you all might know Marla from rec.gardens.orchids. I invited her to join us, she figured out the room pretty well!

Jerry_No._CA
Kathy-- thanks for all your help, kid. Think it is time to retire.

barbara_in_no._CA
Thank you Kathy, Jerry. Great talk great pictures.

Kathy_in_N_Calif
OK, Thanks for your attention; I hope you had fun, I did!

--The End

Prechat Handout

Oddballs and Oddities, Alternatives in Orchid Growing
By Jerry Rodder, backup vocals by Kathy Barrett

Coir

After more than 8 years of using fir bark as the exclusive media, all my plants are now grown in coconut coir. The switch was made after seeing some roses growing in coir at the Orchid Zone. Although I was advised to go slowly and use only 10% coir, I could not wait to move my entire collection to the new media. Now, after more than 18 months experience with coir, and going through one wet winter, I am convinced that it is excellent for my growing conditions.

After watering the coir, it would appear that air would not get to the roots. But, for whatever reason, the plants have done much better than with fir bark. It may be that the success is because there is a large temperature differential in my greenhouse. However other local growers, with smaller differentials, are successful with coir. For several plants, such as Phals, Paphs, and Miltonia, 30-40% perlite is mixed with the coir. The reason for this is these plants don't require as much water as, say, Catts.

In locations of high humidity, I can imagine there will be problems with coir. It would be interesting for anyone to discuss their experiences at various sections of the world. --Jerry Rodder

[Note From Kathy Barrett - I intend to show pictures of my experiment with paphs growing in coir since 3/00. Be forwarned! Naked roots ahead! Viewing is not advisable for those with young children or squeamish stomachs. Many of us grow orchids in less than perfect environments, and coir just might be a solution to one of your orchid growing problems. So join us for an interesting evening of orchid exploration. Additionally, Jerry will show two pictures of an alternative structure for a quick, cheap garden greenhouse, *G*]