Tell me how you became involved in this particular human-rights campaign?
MH: Somebody came up to me and told me about it. I had a distant memory of it from the 1970s - that's when Indonesia invaded East Timor. [East Timor] was a colony of Portugal until about 1975, and then it got its freedom. I think the following day Indonesia invaded it. Since then, Indonesia has continued to stay there as a standing army. the problem is that Indonesia has a totally different culture than East Timor. Indonesia is the largest Muslim nation on earth. The Timorese are not Muslim; they're Christian. They have been aided from the outside by the Americans, Australians and the British. They've got a lot of oil, you see. About half a million Timorese have been killed by the Indonesians. I just think it's one of the largest genocides in this century. Recently, the leader of the East Timor human-rights campaign, Jose Ramos, was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. That's fantastic.
Is there a peaceful end in sight, or will it continue until one side obliterates the other?
MH: The problem is that in a sense, there is no fight. In some ways that's good, and in some ways that's bad. There is no fighting because the Timorese have no money. They're a poor nation; that's the way the Portuguese left them when they pulled out. There isn't a giant military there to do anything. There was no infrastructure there, which is why the Indonesians invaded so quickly. There was no time for the Timorese to get it all together. Now, there are some Timorese guerillas, for sure. There are also outside pressures on the Indonesian government, like from the United Nations and various human-rights courts.
Let's talk about a country that has been listed as being "free" - Australia, your native land. The Australian parliament, in a rare act of selflessness for a government, seems to be very dedicated to returning lands back to the native Aborigines, who inhabited Australia long before the English settled there in the 1700s.
MH: It has. In the last ten years they've been putting together for the Aborigines what's been called the Mabo Treaty, which would be like if the American government gave the Native Americans their own constitution.
Yes, but this treaty hasn't been that sweeping of reform. It's been estimated by some human-rights groups that only ten percent of the Aborigines are eligible to reclaim their land. The majority of them are still living in poverty on government-mandated reservations.
MH: Well, there was nothing until recently. The Aborigines didn't have a say in anything. It was just old-fashioned genocide. Now remember, when the English came here to Australia back in 1770, it was the most progressive and powerful culture on earth, England, meeting the oldest known culture on Earth. That, you can imagine, lead to a lot of problems. I think it is terrible what has been done to the Aboriginal people. Plus, recently, there has been a lot of guilt floating about for the last few generations of Australians - especially in this generation. The Australian government has finally gotten around to doing something about it. So, yes, a number of Aborigines have reclaimed their land - vast tracts of land. They are selling it off to miners and things like that. At least now they have a say in it. Actually, some of them are becoming wealthy. [laughs] It's amazing. It's an incredible dose of the 20th century into the Aboriginal people.
You'd have to admit that, overall, the Aborigines' plight is pretty tame compared to the majority of countries with more extreme cases of human-rights violations. For example, in Afghanistan, which was rated one of the worst offending countries when it comes to human-rights violations, some of the country's high court has issued 21 ordinances regulating on religious grounds the activities, dress and behavior of women. Extremist Islamic fundamentalists occasionally throw acid in women's faces as punishment for wearing make-up, and routinely harass women for wearing Western clothing or not wearing a veil. In Nigeria, there are numerous executions, disappearances, cases of torture and arbitrary arrests and detentions of key opponents of the government by members of the army and security forces.
MH: Yeah, well there is an extremism happening all over the world at the moment. In politics, governments are on the brink of extremes of left and right all over the place. I spent a bit of time in France and Italy. You see "Fasicism" written all over the walls in both countries. There are loads of slogans and propaganda all the time.
Speaking of France, you spent some time there a number of years ago. That country invokes images of romance, art, stunning architecture and great wine, but recently the conservative party there has been labeled "extreme" by several human-rights organizations. What's going on there?
MH: There is a guy called Jean LePen. He gets about eight percent of the vote, and that's an enormous amount in France. He is far, far right. He runs publicly on the platform of "If you put me in, I will throw out every non-French person that is in the country." He has a lot of support. I have driving companions back in France who are Filipino. They get hassled all the time. Europe's always been bigoted - much more than the States and Australia.
On a global scale, I bet if the free world were fully aware of the horrible things that were happening to people in some countries, they would be a lot more appreciative of what they have and a lot more involved in fighting human-rights abuses.
MH: Absolutely. I think there is more knowledge of this than was before. People should treasure what they have - Americans especially. They don't quite seem to understand this. They take a lot for granted.
Yeah, but why?
MH: Well, it's freedom. Unfortunately, it's the price you pay. There's always going to be some asshole around the corner to eventually mess things up. [laughs]
[thanks to sue morley for transcribing the article!]