Greene's Creationism Truth Filter

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More Nonsense on "TRUE.ORIGINS": Jonathan Sarfati's Support Of Flood Geology by Kevin R. Henke, Ph.D. Contents:      Introduction      Noah's Ark And Woodmorappe's Book      Origin Of Hematite      Origins Of Layered Sediments, Including Varves      Green River Formation      Marine Sediments On Mountain Tops      Multiple Glaciations: Incompatible With "Noah's Flood"      Angular Unconformities      Magma Cooling      Weathering And Erosion      Runaway Subduction      Mountain Uplift Vs Denudation      What Deposits Are "Post-Flood"?      Origin Of Salt Deposits      Conclusions      Acknowledgments      References Introduction Young-Earth creationist (YEC) Jonathan D. Sarfati has written a response Problems with a Global Flood? to Mark Isaak's Problems with a Global Flood (at the Talk.Origins Archive). In this report, I will discuss some of the problems in Sarfati's response and provide additional reasons why "Flood geology" is bogus. Sarfati's report also contains a lot of unnecessary and childish name-calling against Mark Isaak and others, which says something about Sarfati's level of maturity and objectivity. [TOP] Noah's Ark And Woodmorappe's Book The first part of Sarfati's report largely relies on the unlikely and ad hoc arguments for Noah's Ark in Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study (1996) by YEC John Woodmorappe (a pseudonym). Woodmorappe's book consists of one unlikely scenario piled on top of another, which is a gross violation of Occam's razor. It's just easier and rational to admit that Noah's Flood is fiction than to believe that Noah could have pulled off such a trip without a desperate supply of unproved miracles. Nevertheless, most of the arguments in Woodmorappe's book do not deal with geology and so I won't comment on them any further. (For more information, see former YEC Glenn Morton's article Review of John Woodmorappe's "Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study", which discusses several of the unlikely claims in Woodmorappe (1996). Woodmorappe's insult-filled response is here.) [TOP] Origin Of Hematite Sarfati is correct when he states that hematite (Fe2O3) is well oxidized iron. However, the presence of hematite in early to middle Precambrian rocks doesn't mean that free oxygen (O2) was at current levels in the middle to early Precambrian atmosphere. The real problem for YECs is how large areas of Banded Iron Formations (BIFs) with abundant highly pure layers of hematite could have developed in any O2-rich atmosphere that was needed to support Adam and Eve. BIFs are iron-rich deposits that mostly consist of magnetite (Fe3O4, a partially reduced iron mineral), chert (fine-grained silica) and hematite (Fe2O3). Some BIFs extend over distances of 1500 km (Blatt et al., 1980, p. 604), but contain very few clastic materials (Blatt et al., 1980, p.599, 605), which suggests that BIFs formed by chemical precipitation (Blatt et al., 1980, p. 604-607). BIFs are rarely found in rocks that are less than about 1.8 billion years old (Blatt et al., 1980, p. 604). The youngest BIFs are 600 to 800 million years old (Blatt et al., 1980, p. 607). The geologic evidence indicates that after about 1.8 to 2 billion years ago, O2 levels in the atmosphere became sufficient enough to largely prevent the formation of BIFs. Ironstones and red beds replaced BIFs in the Late Precambrian and Phanerozoic geologic records (Blatt et al., 1980, p. 598-608). The early to middle Precambrian atmosphere was probably rich in CO2 and low in O2, somewhat like Venus' atmosphere is today. A high CO2, low O2 atmosphere would have produced acidic oceans (Krauskopf and Bird, 1995, p. 578). The presence of acidic oceans explains the formation of BIFs and the usual absence of dolostones and limestones in early and middle Precambrian rocks. Dolomite and calcite would have been very soluble in the acidic waters and would not have precipitated as dolostones or limestones. Acidic oceans and a low O2 atmosphere could also readily explain the abundant silica in BIFs. When compared with current mildly alkaline sea water, acidic ocean water would have been more effective in breaking down silicate minerals and mobilizing silica for later chert deposition (Krauskopf, 1979, p. 214). Some of the older (older than 2.6 billion years) BIFs are clearly associated with volcanics and the volcanoes could have been sources of abundant iron (Blatt et al., 1980, p. 606). However, the 1.8 to 2.6 billion year old "Superior type" BIFs typically show no association with volcanism (Blatt et al., 1980, p. 604, 606). Their iron probably came from the SLOW weathering of Fe2+ from silicates (Blatt et al., 1980, p. 606-607). Considering how long weathering processes take (Meyer, 1997, p. 120), it is doubtful that YEC could have provided enough weathering time for the formation of the Superior type BIFs. Under a low O2 atmosphere, Fe2+ would have been quite soluble and well distributed in early acidic oceans, which can explain the widespread distribution of hematite and magnetite layers in BIFs (Blatt et al., 1980, p. 607). Initially, some of the dissolved Fe2+ in the acidic Precambrian ocean waters probably precipitated as iron sulfides. The low levels of oxygen in the Precambrian oceans also could have been sufficient enough to partially oxidize Fe2+ to Fe3+ and precipitate magnetite or magnetite precursors over widespread areas. (Also see: GeoMan's Banded Iron Page for more information.) More extensive, but still slow, oxidation of Fe2+ to Fe3+ would have formed colloids (fine-grained, suspended, insoluble particles) or chemically precipitated widespread thin layers of geothite, limonite or other iron oxyhydroxides (Krauskopf, 1979, p. 212-213; Krauskopf and Bird, 1995, p. 360-363). Over time (which is something that YECs don't have much of) buried geothite, limonite and iron oxyhydroxide layers would have dehydrated and possibly converted to hematite (Krauskopf, 1979, p. 212; Krauskopf and Bird, 1995, p. 362). Rye and Holland (1998) also present evidence from Precambrian soils that O2 levels dramatically increased to more than 0.03 atmospheres between 2.2 and 2.0 billion years ago. Increases in atmospheric O2 at 2.0 to 2.2 billion years are consistent with the large disappearance of BIFs at about this time or a little later. However, the formation of these soils under a low O2 atmosphere is completely inconsistent with the YEC "Creation Week," where abundant O2 is needed to support the birds and aquatic animals on the "Fifth Day" and the land animals and Adam on the "Sixth Day." Because the excellent and consistent scientific evidence for a low-O2 early to middle Precambrian atmosphere refutes their interpretations of Genesis, YECs will never accept any of this evidence, no matter how good it is. [TOP] Origins Of Layered Sediments, Including Varves Laminae are very thin, parallel layers of sediment or sedimentary rock. By definition, laminae are less than one centimeter (cm) thick (Blatt et al., 1980, p. 129). Sometimes, hundreds of thousands of laminae may be stacked on top of each other. The lateral length of laminae varies greatly and in some cases, individual lamina have been laterally traced for at least 90 kilometers (55 miles) (Blatt et al., 1980, p. 553)!! Sarfati quotes YEC Andrew Snelling's "Sedimentation Experiments: Nature Finally Catches Up!", which provides an example at Mount St. Helens where a 7.6 meter (25 feet) thick pyroclastic "flow" (and/or pyroclastic surge?, Carey, 1991; Walker and McBroome, 1983; Hoblitt and Miller, 1984; Waitt, 1984; Walker and Morgan, 1984) was deposited in only a few hours. The deposit was documented and photographed by YEC Steve Austin. In his "Sedimentation Experiments" article, Snelling describes the 7.6 meter thick pyroclastic deposit as having "thin laminae" of fine and coarse ash with some cross-bedding. Sarfati and Snelling use this example to loudly proclaim that YEC Austin has made an important discovery at Mount St. Helens, that is, laminar- and cross-beds can form rapidly. Before Sarfati and other YECs further proclaim Austin's "discovery" of rapidly developing laminae and cross-bedding, they should look at the literature and learn some geology. For decades, geologists have known that cross-bedding and laminae can form in rapidly deposited pyroclastics (especially surges) (Fisher and Schmincke, 1984, p. 107-115, 191, 192, 198-206, 247-256; Schmincke et al., 1973; Carey, 1991). For example, Schmincke et al. (1973) discussed the presence of laminar- and cross-bedding in a pyroclastic deposit at Laacher See, Germany. Many of the features seen in pyroclastics, such as cross-bedding, antidunes and laminar features, resemble those seen in "Bouma sequences," which typically form in natural catastrophic turbidite flows (Schmincke et al., 1973; Fisher and Schmincke, 1984, p. 107-115). Bouma developed his sequence way back in 1962 and he knew that the laminar bedding in the sequences were the result of rapid flows (Bouma, 1962). At the same time, laminae and cross-beds may also form slowly in quiet, gradually changing environments (Blatt et al., 1980, p. 133-135). Clearly, Austin's pyroclastic deposit at Mount St. Helens is not something new to geologists. It's just another pyroclastic deposit with ordinary laminar- and cross-beds. Sarfati, Austin (1994, p.37-39), and other YECs are also fond of citing a number of references that indicate through field and laboratory studies that laminae may form very quickly (as examples: Kuenen, 1966; Berthault, 1986; Berthault, 1988a; Bailey and Weir, 1932; Ball et al., 1967). By looking at when Bailey and Weir (1932), Kuenen (1966), and Ball et al. (1967) were written, it is clear that most of this is nothing new (also see: Bouma, 1962; Schmincke et al., 1973). However, from reading Sarfati's essay and Snelling's "Sedimentation Experiments", the reader gets the impression that creationist Berthault (1986, 1988a, 1988b, 1990) recognized the fast formation of a certain type of laminae about 10 years before Makse et al. (1997) and the editors of the prestigious journal, Nature. Berthault's work appears to be valid, although I don't know if he was producing the same type of multilaminar features that are discussed in Makse et al. (1997). Snelling also suggests that Makse et al. (1997) unfairly ignored Berthault (1986, 1988a, 1988b, 1990). He implies that Makse et al. (1997) did so because of Berthault's creationist ties. However, Berhault might have scooped Makse et al. (1997) if he had published in Nature or Science rather than in French or creationist journals. Whether Snelling recognizes it or not, non-English journals are often ignored in English-speaking countries and creationist journals are not widely circulated or read by scientists. Austin is not the only person investigating the recent features on Mount St. Helens. Carey (1991) and Fisher and Schmincke (1984) mention numerous investigations (as examples: Hoblitt, 1986; Druitt, 1989; Fisher et al., 1987; Keiffer, 1981; Moore and Sisson, 1981). Fisher and Schmincke (1984, p. 191) even include a nice photograph of inverse graded bedding in an ash deposit from the May, 1980 eruption at Mount St. Helens. Clearly, Austin's work at Mount St. Helens is nothing unique or revolutionary. [TOP] Green River Formation Some, but not all, laminae are varves. Varves are couplets of laminae that result from seasonal changes. Typically, varves consist of alternating light- and dark-colored layers (Blatt et al., 1980, p. 133). In temperate lakes, for example, the light layers may form from sediment runoff during the summers, while the dark layers may represent organic matter that settled during the winters. Frequently, each couplet represents an annual accumulation of sediment. Therefore, by counting couplets, the age or length of the accumulation time may be estimated for a series of varves. In a way, varves resemble tree-rings. The famous Green River Formation of Wyoming contains numerous varves. The formation and its varves probably developed in several large Eocene lakes. The Green River Formation is frequently cited by YEC critics because the numerous varves refute both "Flood geology" and a "young" creationist Earth. Sarfati and other YECs argue that the rocks of the Grand Canyon and the Green River Formation and its varves may have formed rapidly, just like Austin's pyroclastic "flow" at Mount St. Helens. However, clearly, it is gross mistake for Sarfati and his YEC allies to assume that the rapid processes that formed a pyroclastic deposit at Mount St. Helens can be scaled up to explain the geology of the Grand Canyon or the delicate and extensive varves of the Green River Formation. For example, as far as I know, the laminae of the Green River Formation do not include cross-bedding, antidunes or other features that are present in Bouma sequences and some pyroclastic deposits. Now, there is no doubt that multiple laminae may form in a single season or even from a single storm or sediment flow as Austin (1994, p. 37-39) and other YECs claim. However, YECs are mistaken if they believe that ALL laminae form rapidly. Glenn Morton in Young-Earth Arguments: A Second Look, for example, cites Hsu and Lambert (1979) and illustrates the great differences between regularly spaced annual varves from Lake Zurich, Switzerland, and noticeably irregular storm laminae from Lake Walensee, also in Switzerland. Austin (1994, p. 38) mentions the storm laminae from Hsu and Lambert (1979), but fails to quote Hsu and Lambert's (1979, p. 460) clear statement that annual varves do exist in other Swiss lakes, such as Lake Zurich. By failing to quote Hsu and Lambert's (1979, p. 460) comment, Austin gives the false impression that there are no annual varves in any Swiss lakes. In Young-Earth Arguments: A Second Look, Morton also discusses how pollen supports the validity of varves in another Swiss lake. The varves and their pollen record the sedimentation history of the lake back to at least 7,000 BC! As part of their efforts to discredit the presence of varves in the Green River Formation, Austin (1994, p. 39) and other YECs often cite Buchheim and Biaggi (1988). Sarfati makes a vague reference to this paper by saying that the presence of a pair of volcanic ash layers in the Green River Formation undermines the "evaporite mechanism" for the formation. Buchheim and Biaggi (1988) is only a brief abstract, but the authors expressed skepticism about the presence of varves in at least one portion of the formation. The number of laminae situated between two volcanic ash layers (tuffs) varied from 1160 to 1568 with the number and thickness of the laminae increasing from the basin center to the margin. Both geologists and YECs would agree that the ash layers were probably deposited rapidly after winds brought in the ash from distant volcanic eruptions. If the laminae between the two ash layers were true annual varves and if none of the varves were eroded then there should be no discrepancy between the number of varves between the two ash layers. Now, scientists know that not all of the layering in the Green River Formation are varves (Ripepe et al., 1991, p. 1155). Specifically, the Tipton, Laney and Wilkins Peak Members of the Green River Formation frequently contain varves. The Wilkins Peak Member also contains abundant salt deposits that formed from dry evaporating conditions, which, by the way, are incompatible with a wet raging "Flood." These salts would have dissolved and dispersed in any "Flood" waters. Because the Wilkins Peaks Member is sandwiched between the Tipton and the Laney members (see Figure 2, p. 1147 in Fischer and Roberts, 1991), this means that the area experienced deep lake conditions as the Tipton was deposited, followed by the drier conditions of the Wilkins Peak and finally BACK to the deeper water of the Laney Member. That's a lot of deposition and climatic change for even 6,000 years. Miall (1990, p. 489) also notes that the Parachute Creek Member of the Green River Formation consists of kerogen-rich layers that formed during humid lacustrine phases and kerogen-poor layers that resulted from arid playa phases. How could arid conditions exist during "Noah's Flood"? Some individual varves in the Green River Formation may extend for 10's of kilometers (Fischer and Roberts, 1991, p. 1148) and there are more than 5,000,000 individual couplets or a total of more than 10,000,000 individual layers (Strahler, 1987, p. 233). Sarfati quotes Berthault (1988b, 1990) and invokes a "self-sorting mechanism" to explain the rapid formation of numerous laminae at once in the Green River Formation. So, if this "sorting mechanism" was responsible for the laminae in the Green River Formation, how could this mechanism instantly produce numerous fine-grained laminae over ten's of kilometers (Fischer and Roberts, 1991, p. 1148)? It's one thing to rapidly produce some laminae in a laboratory separatory funnel (see Figure 1 in Snelling's "Sedimentation Experiments"), it's another thing to rapidly deposit thin layers of clay and silt over 10's of kilometers. Even YEC Kurt Howard admits in Varves: Problems For Standard Geochronology that silts normally take days to settle out and clays even longer. (Unlike relatively coarse sand particles, very small particles (silts and clays) take time to settle out of solution.) Therefore, if 10,000,000 layers formed in only 6,000 years, an average of 4.6 layers would have to settle out completely in one day! That's too fast and chaotic for the geology of the formation. Of course, things become even worse for YECs, since in their minds, the Green River Formation either formed during the year-long "Flood" or in the 4,000 or so years of "post-Flood" history. Already, the 6,000 year old YEC time frame is refuted. YECs must also explain how 10,000,000 layers, some of which may extend over tens of kilometers, can form in less than a few thousand years without eroding previously deposited layers or producing cross-bedding or other non-linear features. Simply hoping that Berthault's laboratory work could somehow be scaled up to 10's of kilometers isn't good enough. Worst of all for YEC, variations in varve thickness within the Green River Formation clearly fall into regular cycles, several of which correlate beautifully with various long-term weather, climate, and astronomical cycles (Fischer and Roberts, 1991; Ripepe et al. 1991): Cycle in Years* In Green River? Explanation 4-6 Yes ENSO (El Niño!!) 11-12 Yes Sunspot Cycle 30 Yes Unknown 600-700 Yes? Unknown 3,000 Yes? Unknown 20,000 Yes Precessional cycle 40,000 No Obliquity cycle 100,000 Yes Eccentricity cycle 400,000 No Long eccentricity cycle * The lengths of some of these cycles have slowly changed over geologic time (Van Andel, 1994, p. 243-244). Notice that the cause(s) of some of the cycles have not been explained. Other expected cycles were not detected in the research discussed in Fischer and Roberts (1991) and Ripepe et al. (1991). The cycles are real; there's no conspiracy here. Petrographic, statistical and geophysical methods have detected the cycles and some of them have been seen over and over and over again in the Green River Formation for the past 70 years. Notice that YEC web sites, like Varves: Problems For Standard Geochronology, or the one recommended by Sarfati, Green River Blues, completely ignore the associations between varve thickness and astronomical, weather and climate cycles. Why? Because these correlations utterly refute YEC and YECs haven't been able to cook up any natural explanations to deal with them. Why would laminae segregate by cycles to conform to the Earth's eccentricity if the Earth is too young to have completed even one of these cycles? No rivers or turbidity currents along with Berthault's deposition mechanism can explain them either. YEC views (they're too inadequate to be called models) are too fast and chaotic to be affected by subtle astronomical and climate cycles. Quiet and stagnant water is needed to record these astronomical processes and slow climatic changes. All YECs can do is ignore 70 years of research or falsely deny the existence of the cycles. The Green River Formation contains some beautifully preserved fish and other fossils. However, except for microfossils, fossil-bearing laminae are uncommon in the formation (Fischer and Roberts, 1991, p. 1147). Sarfati and other YECs are skeptical that dead fish could have laid undisturbed on the bottom of lakes where they were slowly encapsulated into varves over many years. YECs insist that the fish and other well-preserved fossils had to have been buried quickly by "Noah's Flood" or subsequent "post-Flood" catastrophe(s). Otherwise, they claim, the fossils would have been destroyed by decay and scavengers. Drever (1997, p. 166-169) states that the bottoms of deep water (eutrophic) lakes may become very anaerobic if the cold bottom waters (the hypolimnion) remain dense and stagnant. That is, the bottom waters of lakes may not experience frequent seasonal mixing and aeration, especially in depositional environments like those of the Green River Formation, where the bottom waters were probably saltier and, therefore more dense, than the surface waters (Drever, 1997, p. 169; Fisher and Roberts, 1991, p. 1147). Fischer and Roberts (1991, p. 1147) and Strahler (1987, p. 233) further discuss in more detail the field and geochemical evidence on why scavengers were often absent in the Green River Formation. Not only was the deep and quiet water too stagnant (low oxygen) and salty to support scavengers and aerobic decay-promoting bacteria, but the water probably had too much highly poisonous H2S to support scavengers, burrowing organisms, and most bacteria that would have destroyed organic remains and disrupted varve structures. Strong currents would also not have been expected in the stagnant water, so the fish corpses could have remained intact and undisturbed for many years until burial. Nevertheless, Ripepe et al. (1991, p. 1157) show photographs of varves that have undergone possible small-scale bioturbation, so varve disruption and decay may have occurred at some of the sites. The Green River Formation represents only a small fraction of the geologic record, but by itself it sinks both YEC and "Flood geology." Morton gives examples of other cyclic sedimentary rocks (Devonian Catskill Delta, Triassic Hungarian carbonates, and Newark Basin of New Jersey) that refute YEC in Why The Flood Is Not Global. [TOP] Marine Sediments On Mountain Tops Plate tectonics has shown that sedimentary and other rocks may be uplifted to form mountains, such as the Appalachians or Himalayas. For example, see the diagrams in Strahler (1987, chapter 20). YECs, such as Morris (1978, p. 98), however, claim that marine fossils on the crests of mountains are evidence of "Noah's Flood." The idea that rising or receding waters from Noah's "Flood" deposited fossils on the slopes of mountains is not new. Leonardo DaVinci investigated this idea about 500 years ago and correctly concluded that fossils at high elevations in Italy resulted from the uplift of beach deposits rather than being deposited by Noah's "Flood" (Young, 1982, p. 36). Also look at Donald Wise's Creationist Geologic Time Scale. Wise has some good arguments on why "Flood deposits" couldn't have dewatered and solidified rapidly enough to form the high walls of the Grand Canyon. Contrary to what YECs might believe, sedimentary rocks do not solidify like concrete!! [TOP] Multiple Glaciations: Incompatible With "Noah's Flood" Sarfati, like most YECs, believes that there was only one ice age during the Earth's history and it supposedly occurred after "Noah's Flood." However, geologists have found abundant field evidence for several glacial events during the Earth's history: one about 2.3 billion years ago, three in the late Precambrian, another in the Ordovician/Silurian, another in the Devonian of Brazil, another in Late Pennsylvania/early Permian, and several glaciations during the Pleistocene (Strahler, 1987, p. 265; Hambrey, 1985; Caputo, 1985; Andersen and Borns, 1994). Sometimes these glacial features provide detailed information on paleoclimates. For example, sand wedge polygons in 650 million year old glacial deposits in Australia indicate typical winter temperatures of -35° C and only 4° C in the summer (Williams, 1989, p. 97; Williams, 1986). Williams (1986) discusses the presence of fossil permafrost horizons, ice- and sand-wedge structures, and other Late Precambrian permafrost and glacial features. There's even nice photographs of Precambrian cold climate sandstone wedges in Williams (1986, p. 237). As Williams (1986, p. 234) states, sand/sandstone wedges imply cold and dry conditions, while ice wedges develop in wetter, but still cold, climates. The periglacial and glacial features shown and discussed in Williams (1986; 1989) are hardly consistent with YEC claims of a "warm Pre-Flood world." Evidence for the Late Ordovician-Early Silurian glacial period in Africa include: sandstone wedges, eolian (dry) sand in frost cracks, striated and grooved pavements, roches moutonnees, glacial valleys, crescentric friction cracks, step fractures, ice-push structures, drumlins, fluted tillite surfaces, and esker-like structures (Hambrey, 1985, p. 276-277). All of which, are completely incompatible with a rapid "Flood." YECs have either ignored these features or ignorantly labeled them as "mud flows" (Morris and Morris, 1989, p. 36-37). However, glacialogists have developed numerous criteria to distinguish tillites, tills, and other glacial deposits from non-glacial mudflows (Dreimanis and Schluechter, 1985; Spencer, 1971; Hambrey and Harland, 1981, chapter 4). For example, Hambrey and Harland (1981, p. 14) note that glacial striations, unlike tectonic or mass flow striations, tend to occur in two or three intersecting sets and have a "nailhead" form. Articles in Hambrey and Harland (1981) provide numerous examples of Ordovician and Late Paleozoic glacial deposits that are sandwiched between Paleozoic rocks that YECs would like to attribute to the "Flood." Again, the stratigraphy presents countless problems for YECs: how could glaciers form during the middle of a year-long "Flood"? For example, the Late Paleozoic Dwyka Formation, a tillite, in the southern Karoo Basin of South Africa forms both conformable and unconformable contacts with the underlying early Carboniferous Cape Supergroup sandstone (Von Brunn and Stratten, 1981, p. 72-76). The Dwyka Formation gradually transforms into the overlying shales and siltstones of the Permian Ecca Group (Von Brunn and Stratten, 1981, p. 75; Martini, 1997b, p. 321). Von Brunn and Stratten (1981) discuss the terrestrial plants and other fossil species that are used to date the Dwyka and associated formations. The Dwyka Formation and related formations in the Karoo Basin contain many glacial features, including: roches moutonnees, chatter-marks, nail-head striations, crescentic gouges, bevelled and striated boulder pavements, crag-and-tail phenomena, fold structures resulting from overriding ice, faceted dropstones, and U-shaped valleys (Von Brunn and Stratten, 1981, p. 72, 75, 76). Glacial deposits from the Late Carboniferous (Pennsylvanian) of southern Africa, India, Australia, and South America show ice flow directions (Strahler, 1987, p. 263). When palaeomagnetic data are used to reconstruct the continental positions during the Pennsylvanian, the ice flow directions clearly radiate from the polar region. Papers in Martini (1997a), Hambrey and Harland (1981), and their references also contain countless examples of field evidence for Late Paleozoic glaciations. These include studies in South America (Lopez-Gamundi, 1997 ), India (Wopfner and Casshyap, 1997), Antarctica (Isbell et al., 1997), Africa (Visser, 1997; Wopfner and Casshyap, 1997) and Australia (Lindsay, 1997). Evidence of Late Paleozoic glaciations is so obvious and well supported that Wegener used the deposits to argue for continental drift way back in 1924 (Smith, 1997, p. 165). Even YEC Northrup (1983, p. 71) admitted that there were glaciations during the Permian and he indicates that the overlying Mesozoic and Cenozoic rocks are largely "post-Flood." In another example, Late Ordovician tillites of the Tamadjert Formation of the Central Sahara of Africa are sandwiched between overlying 500 meter-thick graptolite-rich Silurian marine shales and underlying sandstones and clay beds of the 300 to 400 meter-thick Lower Ordovician Ajjers and In Tahouite formations (Biju-Duval et al., 1981, p. 100-101). The tillites range from a few meters to 200 meters thick. Glacial and periglacial features of the Tamadjert Formation include striated and grooved glacial pavements, glacial flutings, proglacial outwash sediments, rhythmites, poorly sorted materials, eskers, "gres cloisonnes" partings on sandstones, melt-water stream deposits, kettles, glacial lake deposits, sandstone wedges, frost cracks filled with eolian sand, hydrolaccolites (pingo-like periglacial structures), drumlins, roches moutonnees, glacial valleys, crescentic cracks, step fractures, and ice-push structures (Biju-Duval et al., 1981, p. 100-105). Of course, if there were only a few such features in the Tamadjert Formation, YECs might be able to argue that they were really mud flows. However, the number of glacial and periglacial features are so abundant that not even the ad hoc imaginations of YECs can ignore or explain them away. Caputo (1985) provides field and other evidence to support Late Devonian glaciations in Brazil. The evidence includes poorly sorted rocks with striated, faceted and polished pebbles; dropstones in fined-laminated rocks (rhythmites); erratic boulders; striated pavements and sandstones that were probably deformed by ice. Later on pages 305-311, Caputo (1985) lists and discusses 11 different criteria that support the existence of glaciers during the Late Devonian of Brazil. One of the criteria includes continental reconstructions based on paleomagnetic and lithologic data. The reconstructions indicate that the deposits formed at high latitudes and high elevations (Caputo, 1985, p. 309), which are favorable locations for the formation of glaciers. As with other Paleozoic glacial deposits, the Devonian glaciers of Brazil were entirely too slow and too cold to be compatible with a "Noahic Flood" on a 6,000 to 10,000 year old Earth. Evidence for several Pleistocene glaciations is discussed by Wise in Creationist Geologic Time Scale and in Andersen and Borns (1994) and Strahler (1987, chapters 26 and 27). Field geologists first recognized multiple Pleistocene glaciations in Europe in the early to mid 19th century. For example, in 1863 in Scotland, A. Geikie found a layer with warm climate fossil flora sandwiched between two glacial tills (Andersen and Born, 1994, p. 18). Obviously, the Scottish sediments represented a warm interglacial period between two separate glaciations. By the mid-20th century, the Pleistocene glaciations were traditionally grouped into four episodes separated by warmer interglacial periods (Andersen and Borns (1994, p. 18, 38). In North America, the glacial periods were named from oldest to youngest: the Nebraskan, Kansan, Illinoian, and Wisconsin. Today, field and associated laboratory studies indicate that the Pleistocene glaciations were even more numerous and complex than traditionally believed (Andersen and Borns, 1994, chapter 2). Conclusive evidence for multiple Pleistocene glaciations is found in oxygen isotope and micropaleontological data from cores of deep sea sediments, oxygen isotope data from calcite deposits in caves and elsewhere, oxygen isotope data from ice cores from Antarctica, and the stratigraphy of Chinese loess deposits (Andersen and Borns, 1994, chapters 1 and 2; Strahler, 1987, p. 251-254). As shown in Andersen and Borns (1994, chapters 1 and 2) the evidence for multiple Pleistocene glaciations and other climatic changes is often very consistent. For example, the vegetation record from northern France, deep sea oxygen isotope records, and oxygen isotope analyses of the Vostok Station ice core, Antarctica, all show similar cold and warm periods over the past 150,000 years (Andersen and Borns, 1994, p. 23). Some of the evidence for multiple Pleistocene glaciations is based on oxygen isotope analyses. Because of their biases, YECs may be tempted to attack the reliability of oxygen isotope methods. However, if they do, for consistency, they must also reject Snelling and Woodmorappe's (1998, p. 539-540) use of oxygen isotopes to supposedly defend YEC interpretations for rapidly cooling plutons. [TOP] Angular Unconformities Although the sequence of events associated with the development of angular unconformities is very straightforward (see Unconformities at Emory University's Geosciences website), Sarfati suggests that angular unconformities are simply a "matter of interpretation." Sarfati's YEC ally, Steve Austin, would probably disagree that the interpretation of angular unconformities is so subjective (Austin, 1994, p. 43-47, chapter 2 and 4). For example, Austin (1994, p. 45-47, 59-67) extensively discusses the angular unconformity between the Tapeats Sandstone and the underlying Precambrian rocks at the Grand Canyon. This contact is traditionally called the "Great Unconformity" (Austin, 1994, p. 45; Elston, 1989, p. 96). Austin (1994, p. 23-24) recognizes the validity of elementary field geology techniques, which state that unless the rocks have been overturned, overlying rocks are younger than underlying rocks. This makes sense. In order to deposit sediment on top of a rock, the rock has to be there before the sediment arrives. In addition, if a fault or angular unconformity cuts across a series of rocks, the rocks must be there before the fault or unconformity develop. Both YECs and geologists would basically agree with the following sequence of events from oldest (1) to youngest (7) that are associated with the Great Unconformity at the Grand Canyon: 1 (Oldest) Deposition of thick sequences of volcanics and sediments that later became the Vishnu Schist. 2 Injection of Zoroaster Plutonic Series/Metamorphism of deeply buried volcanics and sediments to form the Vishnu Schist. 3 Erosion and exposure of Vishnu and Zoroaster rocks. 4 Deposition of Grand Canyon Supergroup. 5 Faulting and tilting of Grand Canyon Supergroup. 6 Erosion and development of Great Unconformity. 7 (Youngest) Deposition of the sands that formed the Tapeats Sandstone. While YECs and geologists basically agree with the chronological order of these events, they disagree over exactly when these events occurred and how long they occurred. (For more detailed discussions on the geology of the Grand Canyon, see The Geology of the Grand Canyon.) Austin (1994, p. 59) admits that the oldest rocks in the Grand Canyon include the metamorphic Vishnu Schist. Metamorphic rocks, by definition, form from the heating of igneous and sedimentary rocks without melting them (Perkins, 1998, chapter 7). Austin (1994, p. 12) basically agrees with this view. Austin (1994, p. 60) even suggests that the Vishnu Schist formed from older igneous and sedimentary rocks when he states: "What the Vishnu and associated rocks in their present form were derived from remains uncertain." At the same time, Austin (1994, p. 59) and other YECs typically associate the entire origin of the Vishnu Schist to the "Creation Week." Specifically, Austin (1994, p. 60) argues that the Vishnu Schist and associated metamorphic rocks formed on Day 1, and then on Day 3 the Zoroaster "Granite" was injected into the rocks. Assigning the Vishnu Schist and Zoroaster "Granite" to the "Creation Week" creates numerous problems for Austin and his YEC allies. Babcock (1990) discusses the Vishnu Schist and Zoroaster pluton complex and shows that they have very complex histories. Ilg et al. (1996) is another, more recent, study that confirms the complex history of these rocks. Clearly, the complex histories of these rocks can't even fit into a 6,000 to 10,000 year YEC time frame without resorting to a lot of awkward and antiscientific miracles. However, the complex histories are entirely compatible with the geological view that the Vishnu Schist is a product of millions of years of deposition and multiple metamorphic and deformational events. YECs might argue that miraculous origins are to be expected during a "Creation Week." However, if these rocks were instantaneously zapped into existence from nothing over three 24 hour days, why do they show so much evidence for a long history of complex events? Specifically, the evidence suggests that the Vishnu Schist started out as layers of marine sediments and basaltic to andesitic lava flows and ash deposits (Babcock, 1990, p. 15). At least some of the deposits were associated with volcanic islands. Over time, some of the volcanics weathered to form quartz-rich sands, silts and clays. The total thickness of the sediment layers and volcanics was greater than 12,200 meters (40,000 feet) (Babcock, 1990, p. 15-16). The Vishnu Schist also shows evidence of carbonate lenses that were possibly created by algal mats. Once the sediments and volcanics were buried, they were exposed to at least two episodes of regional metamorphism. The second metamorphic episode was much hotter than the first and probably reached temperatures of 700° C and pressures of 3-4 kilobars (Babcock, 1990, p. 16-17). The Vishnu Schist also shows signs of contact metamorphism from plutons that were injected into the buried sediments and volcanics (Babcock, 1990, p. 17-18). Radiometric dating indicates that the first metamorphic event occurred about 1,720 to 1,710 million years ago, while the second and more intense metamorphic event occurred about 1,680 to 1,650 million years ago (Babcock, 1990, p. 19). The deposition of the 12,200 meters of sediments and volcanics and their multiple metamorphic events can easily fit into the first 3 billion years of the Earth's 4.5 billion year old history. If God's purpose was to make the Earth's crust on the first day, why go to all the bother of producing 12,200 meters of sediments and volcanics and then destroy them with not one, but at least two, separate metamorphic events? Why not just precipitate the crust from a simple granitic melt and get the job done as YEC Robert Gentry (1988) suggests? Even more to the point, why should any scientist invoke miracles to explain away the complex history of the Vishnu Schist when the geology offers a logical history without miracles? Scientists don't see miracles occurring today and they don't see any evidence for miracles in the geologic record, so why should we invoke them to explain the past when the geologic evidence presents a clear and logical history that doesn't depend on unverified supernatural events? Let's also consider the Zoroaster Plutonic Complex, which Austin (1994, p. 60) suggests formed on the third creation day. The Zoroaster "Granite" actually consists of at least 20 different igneous lithologies, including granites, tonalites, granodiorites, and diorites, grouped into three "superunits" (Babcock, 1990, p. 19-21). With some exceptions, the plutons show increases in their alkali content over time (Babcock, 1990, p. 24). If all of the Zoroaster plutons were zapped into existence on the third day, why do they show lithological differences and chemical trends? Again, why would miraculous plutons show such complex histories? Why are some of them foliated and some not? Why would geologists be able to see evidence of these events if they never occurred and if these rocks simply appeared from "nothing" on the third day? If YECs do claim that the history is real, how do they fit all of these events even into 10,000 years? When do creation "scientists" decide to invoke miracles and when not to invoke them? Not only is it clear that the oldest rocks of the Grand Canyon are incompatible with a rapid "Creation Week," they're incompatible with a creationist young Earth. Weathering zones of up to 50 feet thick have been found on the Precambrian rocks below the Great Unconformity (Sharp, 1940; Ford and Breed, 1974, p. 32, 45; Middleton and Elliot, 1990, p. 86). The extensive weathering and massive amounts of erosion associated with the Great Unconformity are entirely consistent with paleomagnetic and other data that indicate that the unconformity represents about 230 million years of net erosion and nondeposition (from about 800 to 570 million years ago) (Elston, 1989, p. 98). However, Austin (1994, p. 57) claims that the Great Unconformity formed very rapidly during the onset of "Noah's Flood." A catastrophic origin for the unconformity, as proposed by Austin (1994, p. 57), would not have produced the subtle chemically weathered zones that are often found on the top of the Precambrian rocks. Austin (1994, p. 45) recognizes this problem for YEC, so he tries to raise doubts over the very existence of the chemically weathering zones. Specifically, Austin (1994, p. 45-47) claims that geologists are "divided" over the existence of weathering zones associated with the Great Unconformity. Austin (1994, p. 45-47) clearly wants to create a controversy where there is none. On one side, Austin (1994, p. 45-46) admits that Sharp (1940) found sites along the contact that have extensive evidence of chemical weathering. Sharp (1940) even lists the locations of the numerous weathering zones that he found, so that anyone, including Austin, could evaluate his claims. Sharp's work is still highly respected and has been frequently cited over the years (as examples: Strahler, 1987, p. 304; Middleton and Elliott, 1990, p. 86). However, Austin (1994, p. 46) attempts to dispute Sharp's claims for the existence of the weathering zones. Instead of locating any recent geologists that might directly dispute Sharp's interpretations, Austin (1994, p. 46) cites an obviously outdated reference that predates Sharp's discoveries, Hinds (1935). Austin (1994, p. 46) refers to Hinds (1935, p. 14), which states that there's "little" evidence of chemical weathering along the contact. Of course, citing Hinds (1935) in no way refutes Sharp's later work. Perhaps Hinds (1935) simply overlooked the weathering zones that Sharp (1940) found. Weathering zones may be very subtle and easily overlooked. Instead of citing Hinds (1935), Austin needs to go to every one of Sharp et al.'s numerous locations and find scientifically valid alternative explanations for the weathering zones that would still not refute the YEC time frame. I don't think Austin would be able to do this. Although weathering zones are common along the contact, Sharp (1940) admits that in some areas the weathering zones are absent. For example, he (1940, p. 1240) notes that the contact at the foot of Hance Rapids is relatively "fresh" and free of paleo-weathered material. He states that the weathered material probably eroded away before the deposition of the overlying sediments of the Tapeats Sandstone. Not surprisingly, Austin (1994, p. 46, his Figure 3.22) includes a nice photograph of one of the sharp contacts that is devoid of any paleo-weathered material. Austin (1994, p. 46) refers to this sharp contact as being "typical." However, Austin (1994) does not bother to comment on or show photographs of any of the numerous locations where Sharp (1940) and others have found up to 50 feet of paleo-weathered material. Austin (1994, p. 46) also claims that Sharp (1940) never found evidence of "weathering zones of a residual soil" (paleosols). Paleosols, like chemical weathering, would also have taken a lot of time to develop (Meyer,1997, p. 120) and are incompatible for a rapid YEC origin for the Great Unconformity. Austin (1994, p. 46) says that Sharp (1940) described the very granular detritus of the weathering zones as being "structureless." A review of Sharp (1940, p. 1249), however, shows that Austin's (1994, p. 46) claims are wrong. Sharp (1940, p. 1249) refers to the likely existence of intrazonal and probably some "normal" ancient soil deposits along the contact. [TOP] Magma Cooling One of the countless problems for young earth creationism is how plutons can form and cool within the maximum YEC time frame of only a few thousand years. Sarfati cites Snelling and Woodmorappe (1998) as an "answer" to this problem. While YECs Snelling and Woodmorappe (1998) attempt to deal with some aspects of this issue, a careful reading of their manuscript shows that they blatantly ignore many problems that refute their extreme brand of creationism. Traditionally, granitic plutons have been viewed as bulbous diapirs of molten rock rising through the crust. Strahler (1987, p. 213) cites probably outdated calculations from Ramberg (1963) and argues that such diapirs would take about 150,000 years to rise from their sources to the upper crust. Of course, 150,000 years is too long for Snelling and Woodmorappe (1998, p. 527), who argue that the Earth is only 6,000 to 7,000 years old. In recent years, however, geologists have been abandoning the idea of diapir emplacement of igneous rocks, especially in the upper and middle crust (Pitcher, 1997, p. 220-221). Calculations in Clemens and Mawer (1992) show that slow diapirs would solidify before they could reach the upper crust. Many geologists now believe that granitic plutons develop as blobs that resemble expanding balloons or form quite quickly from feeder dikes (Pitcher, 1997, p. 193-195, 219-221; Clemens, 1998). Not surprisingly, YECs wholeheartedly endorse feeder dikes, since these dikes may emplace fairly large granitic plutons in only a few thousand years. Snelling and Woodmorappe (1998, p. 528) even quote Pitcher (1993, p. 186), who states that the growth of granitic plutons by dike injection along fractures may be very fast: "... what is particularly radical is their [Clemens and Mawer, 1992] calculation that a sizeable pluton may be filled in about 900 years. This is really speedy!" In the 1997 edition of Pitcher's book (p. 220), however, he revises his wording and clearly expresses skepticism about the span of 900 years: "The calculations of Clemens and Mawer, referred to at length earlier in this book, show that the times needed for a thick dyke [American spelling: dike] to fill a pluton are 'impressively brief,' and since a sizeable pluton might be fed by a number of such dykes this would be an efficient method of rapidly transporting magma and building batholiths; one of Clemens and Mawer's estimates is just 900 years. This is really speedy and I choose to remain skeptical of such rapid rates of ascent of silicic magma." Later, Pitcher (1997, p. 221) concludes that the emplacement of granitic magma by feeder dikes could occur within a few thousand years. The rapid movement of magma through kilometers of crust is not a new concept. For example, Hyndman (1985, p. 132) quotes Eaton (1962), who states that prior to its eruption from an Hawaiian volcano, earthquake foci were used to follow the movement of magma through about 60 kilometers of crust over a period of two months. Although magmatic diapirs have been strongly criticized in recent years, Weinberg and Podladchikov (1994) have shown that magma diapirs may reach the middle or upper crust before solidification if the diapirs rise through a "thermally graded power law crust." Under such crustal conditions, diapirs would take 10,000 to 100,000 years to rise from the Moho to the upper crust. The trip from the melt zone of a subducting plate to the upper crust would take 100,000 to 1 million years under Weinberg and Podladchikov's conditions. As an alternative to both dikes and diapirs, Weinberg and Searle (1998) proposed that sheets of granitic magma slowly coalesced to form the Pangong Injection Complex in India. Although the emplacement of granites by dikes is currently popular among both scientists and YECs (Clemens, 1998; Snelling and Woodmorappe, 1998), it is doubtful that dikes will explain the emplacement of every granitic rock (for example, Weinberg and Searle, 1998). However, YECs will never accept the current alternatives to dike emplacement (as examples, Weinberg and Searle, 1998 and Weinberg and Podladchikov, 1994) because they are not fast enough for their YEC time frames. Although Snelling and Woodmorappe (1998) have shown that the ascent of magma could occur in less than 10,000 years, magma emplacement only represents part of the formation of a granitic pluton. Magmas must also form from the melting of parent rocks and finally they must cool. For example, Clemens (1998, p. 848) notes that a 1 km long dike that is 3 meters wide could supply a growing pluton with 1,000 km3 of magma in about 1,200 years. However, solidification of the pluton would take at least 25 times longer (30,000 years). Pitcher (1997, p. 222) and others still maintain that the entire process of pluton development would typically take 5-10 million years. These values are not only supported by various melting, conductivity/convection, and cooling models, but also by radiometric dating (Pitcher, 1997, chapter 12). Snelling and Woodmorappe (1998) cite many references that indicate that small plutons can cool within the time demands of YEC, but they often ignore or even cover up other information in these references that they don't like. For example, Strahler (1987, p. 213), Pitcher (1993, p. 182; 1997, p. 215-216), and Snelling and Woodmorappe (1998, p. 531) all cite Spera's magma cooling model (Spera, 1980). (It should be stated that both Pitcher (1993, 1997) and Snelling and Woodmorappe (1998) erroneously refer to Spera's paper as having been written in 1982). Spera (1980, p. 301) indicates that a pluton with a radius of 5 km and a water content of 0.5 wt% would cool in 330,000 years, while 4 wt% water would reduce the cooling time to only about 50,000 years. Strahler (1987, p. 213) refers to the 50,000 years, but not surprisingly, Snelling and Woodmorappe (1998) never mention the dates associated with the cooling time calculations in Spera (1980), since even the reduced ages still exceed the allotted YEC age for the Earth. Snelling and Woodmorappe (1998) even perform calculations to avoid mentioning the long cooling times in Spera (1980). Specifically, Snelling and Woodmorappe (1998, p. 531) mention an example from Spera (1980, p. 300), which involves a 10 km wide pluton at 7 km depth and with 2 wt% water. Spera (1980, p. 300) states that the cooling time for the pluton would decrease from 3,600,000 years to 200,000 years if a contact temperature of 500° C was used instead of 700° C. (The contact temperature refers to the temperature at the contact between the pluton and the rocks surrounding the pluton.) To avoid mentioning the long ages, Snelling and Woodmorappe (1998, p. 531) do some math and simply indicate that there is an 18 fold decrease in the cooling time in this example. Snelling and Woodmorappe (1998) also cite modeling data out of Hayba and Ingebritsen (1997) to indicate that a hypothetical 2 x 1 km pluton at 2 km depth and with a permeability of 33 millidarcies (md) would cool in only about 3,500 years. However, Snelling and Woodmorappe (1998) largely ignore the numerous examples in Hayba and Ingebritsen (1997) of larger and/or less permeable plutons that would take 10,000 to 25,000 years or even longer to cool below 150C. Hayba and Ingebritsen (1997, p. 12,238) also conclude that, depending upon permeability, a hydrothermal system around a single 2 x 1 km cooling pluton could remain active over approximately 30,000 to less than 10,000 years. Because even larger plutons in the Canadian Precambrian shield and northern Appalachians, as examples, are geologically dead, it's not surprising that Snelling and Woodmorappe (1998) ignore comments in Hayba and Ingebritsen (1997) about cooling plutons and hydrothermal systems that would easily exceed YEC time limits. While small plutons may form, emplace and cool within Snelling and Woodmorappe's YEC time demands, the geologic record is full of large and cold plutons that obviously could not have formed and cooled in only a few thousand years. As examples, Paterson and Tobisch (1992, p. 293) list the cooling times of a number of large plutons, including the Quottoon Batholith of British Columbia (700° to 450° C) (2 million years), the Separation Point Batholith of New Zealand (700° to 450° C) (2 million years), and the Sierra Nevada Batholith of California (more than 10 million years). Snelling and Woodmorappe (1998, p. 538-539) cite a number of references (as examples: Brandeis and Jaupart, 1987; Dunbar et a1., 1995; Swanson, 1977; Swanson and Fenn, 1986; London, 1992; Chakoumakos and Lumpkin, 1990) and conclude that crystals in either gabbroic or granitic plutons could easily grow to their observed sizes within a few thousand years. The typical cooling rates in Snelling and Woodmorappe (1998, p. 539) and their references are between 10-6 to 10-10 cm/sec. However, Snelling and Woodmorappe (1998) may be overly optimistic about fast crystallization rates. Other references do not support their claims. As examples, Paterson and Tobisch (1992) and Cashman (1990) reviewed the literature for field and experimental data on crystal growth rates in some detail. After reviewing all of the data, including some of the same references used by Snelling and Woodmorappe (1998), Cashman (1990, p. 302) concluded that the growth rates for most plagioclase and olivine crystals are only 10-10 to 10-11 cm/sec. Paterson and Tobisch (1992, p. 294) admit that by using typical values in Cashman (1990), a large 10 cm crystal could grow in about 33,000 years. However, Paterson and Tobisch (1992, p. 294) state that 33,000 years may be too fast, since parts of the growing crystals could resorb into the magma or the growth rates may vary over time. Paterson and Tobisch (1992, p. 294) conclude that all pluton crystals could grow to their observed sizes within a few hundred thousand years. Of course, this time span is too long for YEC. In yet another example of selective quoting, Snelling and Woodmorappe (1998, p. 531) cite Marsh (1989, p. 523-524) and note that an hypothetical magma ocean about 10 kilometers thick could solidify in only 10,000 years. However, Snelling and Woodmorappe (1998) don't mention that Marsh (1989, p. 523-524) also states that if the crust forming on top of the magma ocean is fairly stable, the cooling time would be about 500,000 years rather than only 10,000 years. In summary, the data indicate that at least some granitic plutons may be emplaced in only a few thousand years by dikes. Geologists should accept the possibility of fast emplacement by dikes because it's based on good data. Modern uniformitarianism (more properly referred to as actualism) must accept any scientifically valid evidence, whether it supports rapid events and natural catastrophes or slow processes and old events. That is, it's very possible that many plutons have moved through the crust in only a few thousand years or even much faster. However, this does not mean that the Earth is only a few thousand years old. [TOP] Weathering And Erosion Sarfati reminds us that water can quickly break and erode concrete dams. So, he asks: why does the erosion of granitic rocks require long periods of time as Mark Isaak claims? It is certainly possible that catastrophic local floods could erode rocks very quickly. However, erosion is not usually that fast and many silicate rocks are a lot harder than concrete and cement. Furthermore, the presence of well developed Precambrian and Phanerozoic weathering profiles or ancient soils (paleosols) utterly refute YEC. Ancient soils with good horizons could not have formed during a "Flood" and often not even in 10,000 years. As examples, Meyer (1997, p. 120) lists several paleosols and other soil phenomena that would exceed YEC time frames. Specifically, a one meter alterite in India is estimated to have taken 55,000 years to develop. Silcrete takes 100,000 to 1 million years to form. An iron-rich bauxite in Hawaii formed over a period of 10,000 years. A complex iron-rich duricrust in Senegal took 6 million years to form. A one meter thick calcrete with good drainage typically takes about 1 million years to develop. In other examples, Retallack (1986) describes a Precambrian paleosol in a complex series of metamorphosed sedimentary rocks and basalts. Retallack (1986) estimated that the one soil, alone, took 7,000 years to form. [TOP] Runaway Subduction Sarfati quotes YEC John Baumgardner extensively. Baumgardner has developed and used a computer model to "demonstrate" that the Earth's tectonic plates could have rapidly moved during "Noah's Flood" and that long periods of time are supposedly not necessary to explain plate tectonics. Baumgardner's claims are disputed by Donald Wise in Creationist Geologic Time Scale. Baumgardner has been accused of putting unrealistic values into his model to support his "Flood results." That is, his critics charge that his work is a case of "garbage data in, garbage 'Noah's Flood' results out." One of Baumgardner's many claims states that "runaway" tectonic subduction during the "Flood" would have boiled away much of the world's oceans. The resulting steam supposedly quickly condensed to form rainwater for the "Flood." Obviously, without miracles such boiling conditions would have fried Noah and his companions. Furthermore, such rapid tectonic activity would have been too hot to form blueschists and other low-temperature rocks that may be found in old subduction zones. Blueschists are low-temperature, high-pressure metamorphic rocks that form slowly in deep (about 8-14 kilobars or roughly 25 to 50 km deep, Hyndman, 1985, p. 15), but still relatively cool (about 150 to 450C) conditions (Perkins, 1998, p.141, 148; Hyndman, 1985, p. 537, 609-616). The mineralogy of blueschists is unique and will not form under hot or low pressure conditions. [TOP] Mountain Uplift Vs Denudation Baumgardner, as quoted by Sarfati, claims that high mountain ranges, like the Himalayas, present problems for "uniformitarians" (geologists). He claims that the current uplift rate for the Himalayas is 1-2 cm/year. He then scoffs at the idea that these mountains could be very old, since using the current rates, the Himalayas would have risen 10-20 km (33,000 to 66,000 feet) every one million years. So, from Baumgardner's point of view, the Himalayas are too low to be tens of millions of years old. Of course, Baumgardner is making an unjustified Lyell uniformitarian assumption and forgetting about erosion/denudation. If the Himalayas are currently rising at a rate of 1-2 cm/year that doesn't mean that they were in the past. Current evidence indicates that the Himalayas began to uplift about 70 million years ago when the Indian plate colloided with the Eurasian plate, see The Formation of the Himalayas. This site says that the Indian plate is currently moving northward at about 2 cm/year. The web site, along with Summerfield (1991, p. 377), also indicates that the Himalayas are rising at about 5 mm/year or a little lower than Baumgardner's claims. Now, Ritter (1978, p. 205-206) reminds us that as mountains rise and steep slopes develop, erosion/denudation rates increase. In turn, as the relief of mountains, like the Appalachians, become lower through erosion/denudation, the erosion/denudation rates decrease. The denudation rate for the northwestern Himalayas is about 2-9 mm/year (Geomorphic Responses to Rapid Denudation Rates in the NW Himalaya and Karakoram; Fielding et al., 1995). This is not much different than the uplift rates. The uplift rates and denudation/erosion rates for the Himalayas may be near steady state, which is not entirely unexpected (Summerfield, 1991, p. 398-400). Baumgardner really has no basis to argue against the Himalayas being tens of millions of years old. [TOP] What Deposits Are "Post-Flood"? One of the major goals of YEC is to "identify" which rocks and sediments originated from the "Flood" and which are "post-Flood." Sarfati quotes John Baumgardner, who claims that the Pliocene deposits generally represent the end of the "Flood." However, when Baumgardner coauthored a paper with Austin et al. (1994, p. 614), he and his coauthors tentatively claimed that the Cretaceous generally represents the end of the "Flood" deposits. Because of the impressive evidence for Late Paleozoic glaciations, Northrup (1983, p. 71) goes even further and claims that the deposits of the Mesozoic and Cenozoic Eras are generally "post-Flood." Whether the "Flood" ended during the Permian, Paleocene, or Pliocene, YEC is still defeated. If YECs claim that the Mesozoic and Cenozoic rocks are "post-Flood" than they have to explain how all of that sediment got deposited in only a few thousand years after the "Flood." If they claim that the "Flood sediments" are Pliocene and older, as John Baumgardner has most recently claimed, then they have to deal with even more glacial, desert and other non-marine deposits scattered throughout the geologic record. The inability of YECs to agree on where to place the "Flood/post-Flood" contact in the geologic record closely resembles what Cuvier experienced over 200 years ago. When faced with the same problem of where to put the "contact" among the alternating layers of non-marine and marine rocks, Cuvier simply committed a bit of heresy and concluded that there had been six worldwide "floods" over geologic time and that the last one represented "Noah's Flood" (Mintz, 1977, p. 7). [TOP] Origin Of Salt Deposits Another great problem for YECs is how enormous amounts of water-soluble salts (evaporites) could form in the geologic record during a "Flood." Chemistry dictates that the salts would have been dissolved and dispersed in any "Flood" waters rather than precipitated. A number of YECs have attempted to explain the origins of evaporites (for example, Nutting, 1984), but have failed miserably to account for these deposits in a short and wet YEC time frame (Henke, 1990). While Nutting (1984) and other YECs have tried to invoke a magmatic or lower crust/mantle hydrothermal origin for evaporites, Sarfati quotes John Baumgardner, who advocates precipitating them from boiling sea water. Again, Baumgardner believes that a significant amount of the world's oceans violently boiled and evaporated into the atmosphere during the "Flood." Supposedly, this event produced brines that precipitated the evaporites. However, Baumgardner admits that the steam from the boiling oceans would have quickly returned as rains during the "Flood." The real problem for YECs is getting all of that salt distributed through the "Flood" deposits without dissolving them. This is not easy. Some salt deposits are very thick and pure. How were these thick deposits "stuffed" into a sediment column without contaminating them with silicate-rich muds or dissolving them with "Flood water"? In addition, some evaporites, such as the Castile Formation of west Texas, contain salt varves that can be laterally traced for more than 90 kilometers (Blatt et al., 1980, p. 553). As discussed in Wonderly (1987, p. 74-77), these delicate varves show no evidence of a volcanic, hydrothermal, or violent origin. They are completely incompatible with YEC and "flood geology." A review of the origin of the salt deposits of the Michigan Basin shows that their formation is incompatible with magmatic sources or hydrothermal precipitation as advocated by Nutting (1984) or Baumgardner's deadly boiling seas. The rocks contain no evidence of nearby volcanos or other igneous or metamorphic sources (Young, 1982, p. 86). When the Silurian paleogeography of the Michigan Basin is restored, thick semi-concentric barriers of coral reefs become very noticeable (Schreiber, 1988, p. 238-239). As evaporites formed in the Michigan Basin, massive reefs existed just to the east of Lower Michigan in Ontario, along the Ohio-Indiana border, along the Michigan-Indiana border and curving through what is now Lake Michigan and north into Upper Michigan. These reefs would have been ideal barriers to trap evaporating sea water in the Michigan Basin. Periodically, fresh seawater could have broken through or flowed over the barriers to recharge the brines. Open marine carbonates are located at the bottom of the Silurian sequence of the Michigan Basin (Schreiber, 1988, p. 238-240) Above them are evaporites. The lower portion of the evaporites indicate deep water, but the upper portion formed in shallow water (Schreiber, 1988, p. 240). Many of the reefs in the basin have karst features and weathering zones, which indicate that the reefs were periodically above water (Schreiber, 1988, p. 238-240; Warren, 1989, p. 162). While subaerial reefs could have been effective in trapping evaporite-producing brines, such features would not be expected to form during the middle of a "Flood." Overlying the evaporites are more carbonates that formed when fresh seawater entered the basin. Above these carbonates are more layers of evaporites that were slowly produced by evaporating brines that were again trapped in the basin by the reefs. Next, another layer of carbonates formed as seawater once more entered the basin. Finally, more than 610 meters (2,000 feet) of very shallow water evaporites filled the basin (Schreiber, 1988, p. 238-240). Again, these features are entirely compatible with slow evaporation and periodic influxes of seawater over long periods of time. However, they are incompatible with a rapidly raging YEC "Flood." [TOP] Conclusions Overall, Sarfati's post is full of outdated and erroneous claims that could be easily corrected if he would just read some undergraduate geology textbooks. [TOP] Acknowledgments I greatly appreciate Bob Schadewald and Frank Lovell for furnishing manuscripts and information. I also thank Mark Isaak and others for helpful comments. [TOP] References Andersen, B. G. and H. W. Borns, Jr., 1994. The Ice Age World, Scandinavian University Press, Oslo. Austin, S. A. (ed.), 1994. Grand Canyon: Monument to Catastrophe, Institute for Creation Research, Santee, CA, 92071. Austin, S. A.; J. R. Baumgardner; D. R. Humphreys; A. A. Snelling; L. Vardiman; and K. P. 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